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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,692

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Kilocharlie - I see a metalurical problem with knurling. Any material(unlees you heat treat afterwards) that is soft enough to knurl, may nothold up to abuse.
    I believe that Ohmstead(?) built three knifes ,on seperate ways, that where driven into the cylinders at the proper angles to cut the interecting pyramid at the bottom of the cell.

    Oh, and I was wrong, it is "Cassville". on the Mississippi, SE wisc. just southof where the Wisconsin river joins at Prarrie Du Chien.

    Roland

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,421

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    I'm pretty sure the guy that made Dee's mill made it an a lathe.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Good point, Roland. I could get surprised by how much force the wax could exert under extrusion. I need to come up with a design and run a finite force analysis, then try some destructive testing.

    I just know the limitation will be on the length of the rollers, which I was hoping to make fairly long in order to be efficient at producing lots of foundation. In order to quadruple the 200 / day figure mentioned earlier (good to supply 20 boxes), a roller 8 sheets wide is desirable. This is to figure in that rolling might not be the slowest step.

    Such a long roller could be ground with form cutters on an outside diameter grinder mounted on a lathe or gun drill machine, which will allow workpieces of harder, tougher die steel or food grade stainless (which isn't that bad to cut). I figure a trial with a knurl on aluminum is the "quick, cheap, and dirty" approach to start developing the idea into an efficient flex manufacturing process.

    Your idea of something close to eutectiod steel and heat treat / surface harden is a strong consideration - annealed SAE 1070 does cut nicely, hardens and toughens up pretty well, too, especially when nitrided, and very much so if formed (hence my hope to knurl it).

    A very wide wax melter could handle a multiple board or wide board arrangement and I could get a few steps time saving that way. Lots of possibilities, big THANK YOU.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Barry, Thanks for the clue! It will probably come down to who gets enthused, what they have available and if I can get prices on form cutters. Small involute gear cutters are close to the form I have in mind, and would suggest a dividing head set on a horizontal mill.

    A single form bit on a lathe may prove a better way to get a good finish and accurate result. The second and third cuts are the beasties - they won't be as smooth as the first.

    The EDM (electrical discharge machining) process that Roland mentions may be the best bet. It erodes a precision shape. It does cost a pretty penny, but it more or less ensures an accurate shape in brutally hard and tough die materials. The machine will pay for itself in short order despite fairly high cost.

    My suspicion is the O.D. grinder on the lathe will do the trick cheapest and I may have to settle for 1070 steel or D2. First order of business is to go meet the Lusbys or anyone from this cool forum who volunteers to do a live demo, possibly to let me get my hands dirty (or waxy). Wish I was going to this weekend's meeting in Arizona!

    P.S. Does Jon know he's a hit on Beesource yet? Please send him our best wishes, and hopefully he logs in soon with news on Afganistan's bee situation.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 02-28-2011 at 12:58 AM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pinellass County, Florida
    Posts
    1,110

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    kilocharlie
    I have 2 pasta rolling machines,I am not a machinist what so ever,but a tinker
    Beeing a new Beek ,I have zero wax to play with(yes I need to buy some)
    I feel with these machines I can make sheets,If so I would then look for a way
    to have the rollers cut,If you never saw one do google pasta roller
    They have 3 or 4 different cuts and size attachments,they are hand crank
    This may help you in the research and design


    Barry that was a nice look at the past making the foundation
    I will say with confidence you didn't just get started
    I envy all who saw interest in Bees well before me

    Tommyt

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,692

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Kilocharlie - I am also intrested because I may wish to reproduce my Great Great Grandfather's mill. I have a Horizontal mill , and a dividing head, but can not imagine how you would sink a pattern in that has pyramid shaped indents AND rises. I have a shaper head for a Bridgeport, that could be angled to cut one face of the pyramis, but it would tak alot of indexing to hit all of the faces.

    Your idea of doing many sheets at once has me worried. Check what diameter you would need to control the flex on a cylinder of the length you need. You might have to buld it with a crown, another dergee of complication.

    Roland

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    TommyT - I'll swing by several Yuppie friends and see who has a pasta roller. Just looking at it might help a lot. Thank you!

    Roland - My response is too long for Beesource. Private message me with an email and I'll tell you several approaches. One good approach might involve you, Barry, possibly Michael Bush, possibly the Lusbys, anyone else interested, and me writing up a business plan...some time down the road. A better wax machine would need some finance and could turn out a serious profit.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,692

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    I was wrong again, The man from Fond du LAc that made one of the first mill may have been name "Olm".

    Roland

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pinellass County, Florida
    Posts
    1,110

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Kilo
    Yuppie I don't know I am Italian its standard equipment
    I'll get it out and take some pictures post the links
    I would bet if there is an Italian Import store they will have them
    The yuppie mall store Can't think of the name It has high end pans and
    other cooking products may have it

    xxx? and Sonoma or something is the name ????

    Tommyt


    BTW I never saw a piece of wax foundation so I may be way off
    Last edited by tommyt; 03-01-2011 at 06:05 AM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Tommyt-
    Mamma Mia! Italian bees, pasta machines, Tommy guns, - standard equipment! We gotsa no 'Talians round here where I live - just Yuppies, Homies, and too many cops telling me not to keep bees! That's why I'm moving soon.

    If the pasta machines can be modified to produce sheet wax, that will help.

    Actually, I'm probably going to build a machine capable of processing 4'x8' sheets after the embossing roller gets built. I foresee 5 machines: wax sheet; embosser, cutting die, pusher/stacker, and a scale to weigh the boxes. Those small machines give you DOability, a big one gives you efficiency. Gotta be able to pay the 2 guys running the 5 machines and pay me a fat profit with plenty of foundation left over for my bees.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Blemheim, nz
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: Opinions on wax spinners

    Hi interesting, what happens if you just put the plan sheet in the hive, ever tried it

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Yes, I made flat beeswax paper and put it in. Lots of kooky cells. Maybe those bees were drunk. I felt drunk trying to inspect them. After keeping bees in the Mojave dessert, the coastal foothills, and the San Joaquin Valley, I like wax foundation with 9 vertical crimped wires installed onto 4 horizontal wires in the frame, held in place with melted wax. 116 degree F weather did that to me. I will probably like small-cell foundation even better.

    I'm making some foundationless frames and trying them this year, too. Frames are the next project after the current run of boxes. All this machining stuff we're looking into won't happen until later, when its all on paper, has a business plan, and is financed. I suspect Roland will make his replica before I get started. Any Investors?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
    Posts
    2,372

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    TommyT - I'll swing by several Yuppie friends and see who has a pasta roller. Just looking at it might help a lot. Thank you!
    Even this Redneck has a pasta roller.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,421

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    I foresee 5 machines: wax sheet; embosser, cutting die, pusher/stacker, and a scale to weigh the boxes.
    Next question, where are you going to get clean wax?
    Regards, Barry

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pinellass County, Florida
    Posts
    1,110

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation


  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,692

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Barry - uncappiings from about 200 hives in all new equipment, that have not been chemically treated for mites. The wax is SO different colored than the old equipment. The reason I am going this dirrection is I question of the purity of foundation used in Bsswood section comb honey, where you eat the wax.

    Roland

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,421

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    It will take a boat load more than that to feed a mill that kilocharlie is talking about.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,623

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Here is a gallery of both Dee and Kirk Webster's foundation making setups. I also have video of both, and will try to get to editing/uploading, but won't be for a while.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ra...akingAndMills#

    deknow

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,881

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    I just cleaned out a cabinet and found 25 year old honey, beeswax, beesuit, copper smoker and this 1970's vintage Leaf Products foundation press.





  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: How to make wax foundation

    Rio - Now the thought of a Redneck pasta roller conjures up some images...is it powered by a smallblock hemi? Leftover sourmash from the still recycled into pasta? Say "Hi" to Foxworthy for me.

    Tommyt - that makes me hungry! Standard equipment? - soon as I can get one! The Imperia with the ravioli attachment. I'm getting fat looking at it.

    Deknow - Thank you for that AWESOME photo gallery! What was your output? I like the multi-board dip, the water bath, and the closeups of the rollers. Maybe you could describe that melter.

    odfrank - My first guess was a flat, book-type press just like that. Have you worked it yet? Too bad the 25-year-old honey wasn't 25-year-old mead!

    Barry - I already have a boat...Got bees? Actually, that's another thread - what bee plants produce the most wax? What breeds? I can probably find research on what areas - and my guess is go North in the summer. Also, has anybody made any efforts at purification of contaminated wax (fluxes, centrifuge, microfiltration, etc.)? I have a small group of boxes that are out away from civilization and (hopefully) pesticides, etc. More as the stock increases, so I'm hoping that's my personal clean wax source. I'd love to see a thread on electric fences and anti-bear measures, too.

    Everybody!
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 03-02-2011 at 08:12 PM.

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