More Warre Discussion

[beez2010]

The distance between the side bars of a Lang frame is 43cm. The distance between the top and bottom bars of a medium Lang frame is 13.5cm and the 8 frame medium box is 32cm wide. My math says that those measurements make for a volume of 19,156.5cc, with a Warre box equalling 18,900cc, a difference of 256.5cc. The difference in honey from the two boxes might be 1 lb.

Not bad for what was originally a guestimate. Stuff that in your smokers.

Chris

[beez2010]

To everyone on this thread, I apologize if I have been asking ignorant and redundant questions, and making frequent and silly comments. It's winter and I'm not around bees, so I may very well be guilty of talking in circles and wasting everyone's time.

From now on, I will consult the Warre Store Gospel for any and every question I may have. I confess I have only consulted it 5-10 times. Apparently no one else knows anything about anything.

George,

I have a very good analytics program and I know for a fact that if you have ever logged onto my site, you haven't been on more than 1 time for 9 minutes. You haven't read 1/10th of what is available there, just like you haven't read BFA "several times" as you had stated. I don't like people who lie.

Chris

[Buz Green]

George, keep asking questions on this forum. You and anyone else who reads them will benefit from the answers as long as you (and they) keep one caveat in mind.
"Don't believe anything you hear (or read) and only half of what you see"

[curiousgeorge]

Thanks, Buz Green. It's funny, the Warre system is taking me a while to wrap my head around, but the more I read (and I am studying it- unfortunately, only in theory and not in practice right now) the more logical and simple it seems. A lot of it is just a, well, different, approach than what I've been taught and am (slightly, minimally) experienced in (commercial Lang operation). A lot of the interventions and the "philosophy" behind them have to be revisited over & over again to really get the hang of it. I think working with BOXES instead of FRAMES is something that is a big mental adjustment for me, but makes really.good.sense. I'm used to equalizing hives, making splits by taking frames from here & there. Treating a colony box by box is starting to make more & more sense.

The first couple times I went over the system for making splits, I kept shaking my head. But when it all finally clicked... putting the new split on the original spot to take in all the foragers returning and the new foragers returning, it was like a "Eureka!!!" moment. And the whole bees-moving-down-in-summer-moving-up-in-winter thing, and the replacing of comb... I think it is a great shift in thinking. And by this I do not mean to slam the current conventional beekeeping methods. Hell, without that I wouldn't have even realized beekeeping was so awesome, never mind got any experience or knowledge about bees. I'm just excited for the day I can try this all out!

[Adam Foster Collins]

Nice looking hives, Buz. Well done.

Adam

[Adam Foster Collins]

The distance between the side bars of a Lang frame is 43cm. The distance between the top and bottom bars of a medium Lang frame is 13.5cm and the 8 frame medium box is 32cm wide. My math says that those measurements make for a volume of 19,156.5cc, with a Warre box equalling 18,900cc, a difference of 256.5cc. The difference in honey from the two boxes might be 1 lb.

Not bad for what was originally a guestimate. Stuff that in your smokers.

Chris

Michael Bush estimates a medium 8 lang full of honey to weigh 48 pounds. I'm not sure what the hive and frames weigh, but estimates here of 30lbs per warre hive box I assume are just honey weights. If that is correct, then the two do have a very similar honey capacity. Great. So there's a point of interest.

Is that on your site already somewhere, Chris?

It's good that this little thread could get you to do the calculations to get you past the "guesstimate" to some harder numbers.

As a side note, you do have plenty of good information on your site, but you can't blame a person for asking questions here instead of just looking to yours for the education. Most people are more likely to look to a site as a credible source of information if it's primary purpose does not appear to be commercial. You'll find that most informational sites quoted here and held up as examples of great info (you pointed out Michael Bush's), tend to be sites whose primary purpose is to share information.

Not that a commercial site with lots of info is a bad thing - your site seems great. I've been to it several times. Each thing I read, I put into the mix of information I am accumulating on the subject from a variety of sources.

But people are going to come to a discussion forum like this one and ask their "silly questions", and take their answers from a consensus of shared perspectives. I don't think a person should be given a hard time for that here.

Its nice to get a guy like you into a discussion here, and see how he communicates and shares his ideas - away from the marketing... before one spends their money on his products.

Adam

[beez2010]

Everyone,

If you go back and read my posts, you should realize that I was trying to help George and was only irritated because somebody said that I was wrong about the weight similarity when he didn't even know what size Warre boxes were! Then he comes back with the math, comparing Warre boxes to 10 frame deeps....and nobody called him on it. This same person is constantly misconstruing what he reads and then giving poor information.

The bottom line about maximizing production in a Warre hive is that you have to super it during heavy flows. The brood nest will only move downward so fast and you can't just go arbitrarily removing the top box every now and again during the season because there will be brood in there until late in the season.

I provide good information based on experience with Warre hives because I have an interest in seeing people have success with them. Does that seem illogical? I do not want people who have never run Warres giving poor advice to anyone; on this forum or elsewhere; whether they are buying their equipment from me or not.

What business does a guy have, who doesn't even know the box dimensions of one of these hives, giving advice on how to manage them? None.

Read "Supering a Warre" on my site and find out how to maximize honey production from one of these hives. No other method will work (at all) if you want to get more honey than from working the hive the way Warre did. Period.

George came back all mad at me with his comments when all I was trying to do was stop the onslaught of bad information that was occurring here.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com

[Oldtimer]

Yes sorry Beez, didn't mean to get you all upset or anything.

I'm actually not that bad of a guy - truly!

I just quoted the standard lang dimensions because that's what I and most people use. I did think a standard Warré box would have around 30 lbs, so thanks for those who confirmed that.

Reason I asked was I'm trying to get a rough idea what a Warré hive could produce, Cacklewack mentions 5 boxes. Just didn't get if that was the crop, or the height of the hive? If it was the crop it would be around 150 lbs?

[beez2010]

BTW, I'm nearly certain that MB is over on his estimate of 8 frame weight. Maybe we can get him to chime in as to whether or not he stands by that number of 48. There's no way that the boxes/frames weigh anywhere near 18 lbs., and you can't stuff 40 lbs of anything into a 30 lb. container.

Chris

[beez2010]

If you super during heavy flows, you can get just as much honey as from a Lang. If you only nadir when needed, it is highly unlikely that you will get more than 90 lbs.

But be forewarned...if you super too much the brood nest will not move down and you'll have your bees living on filthy combs....just like in a Lang!

All that being said, 99.9% of folks using these hives are hobbyists who couldn't care less. Most don't feel the need for the 90 lbs.

Chris

[beez2010]

Reason I asked was I'm trying to get a rough idea what a Warré hive could produce, Cacklewack mentions 5 boxes. Just didn't get if that was the crop, or the height of the hive? If it was the crop it would be around 150 lbs?

No OT...it's 90 lbs. You can't take all five. Where would the bees live? You can take 3 of 5, if there is no brood in any of the top three. The first time you find brood when you are removing boxes you put that one back and just take the ones above it. If there is just emptiness or empty comb in the bottom box(es), you remove them before winter if necessary, to get reduced down to just two boxes. However, if the bees winter on three, or even more, it's not the end of the world because there will be no empty or unused space above them...ever.

Chris

[Buz Green]

Nice looking hives, Buz. Well done.

Adam

Thank you, Adam.
I do enjoy working with these creatures and I think they like me too.

[Oldtimer]

OK Beez so 90 lbs would be a pretty good crop for a Warré?

And if all the other things you said happen it could be even less?

[beez2010]

And if all the other things you said happen it could be even less?

Of course it could be less. Do you get the same harvest from your Langs every year?

I should clarify that earlier I said that I have never had a hive more than five boxes high. That is because when I super, I do not stack supers on top of each other. A good colony can fill and cap one , during the star thistle flow, in about 12 days (give or take...mostly depending on weather). I remove the capped super, harvest it, and then put it back on if I think they can fill it again without preventing the brood nest from moving down by the end of the season, the way it needs to.

Chris

[Oldtimer]

OK well what i'm STILL trying to get at is what is a reasonable crop for a Warré?

What is your (or anybody elses) average?

[curiousgeorge]

I feel kinda dirty bringing this up when this great forum has moved on, but my ego says so! Chris, it wasn't me who brought up weights or measurements or anything, I don't know any specifics about that.

I think this has been mentioned before... if anything is worth anything it should withstand opposition & prove the opposition wrong. I'm trying to find all the "bad things" about Warre beekeeping because, in truth, I want to BELIEVE that Warre beekeeping is the way to go!
I want as much information on it as possible, and to be aware of its drawbacks (if any) before I get into it hook, line, and sinker.

[beez2010]

OK well what i'm STILL trying to get at is what is a reasonable crop for a Warré?

What is your (or anybody elses) average?

I'm thinking that you didn't read my entire post when I said that if you super you can get just as much as from a Lang. But then, not reading is your thing.

If you mean how much is average if you do not super, and only run the hive exactly as Warre did....then I would say two boxes would be "average" (60 lbs).

Keeping in mind, of course, that I make that statement as a person who has knowledge of beekeeping in the upper mid-western United States--not Zimbabwe.

Chris

[Oldtimer]

George. The only silly question is the one that is not asked.

We all start somewhere, ask away.

Crop numbers.... Anybody?

[Oldtimer]

OK so we're getting there slowly. To clarify, a Warré owner in an average location, who is knowledgeable (like you are), could expect up to around 60 lbs surplus per annum.

Correct?

[beez2010]

IF he or she does not super...60 lbs...on average...yes...correct.

Chris