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  1. #21
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbearomaha View Post
    I think people are being disingenuous and picky about how they try to define "natural" beekeeping".

    Perhaps it would be more appropriate to use the term "naturalistic".
    Yes good point. Sadly I don't think this will actually take on.

    But there is a certain smugness within the various groups of people who describe their beekeeping as "natural", which implies all other beekeepers are "unnatural". The people who describe themselves as "natural" come from several different philosophies and hive designs, comb sizes etc.

    As keeping a totally natural hive is actually illegal, natural beekeeping comes in degrees. So "naturalistic" would be a more accurate term, and hopefully lead away from some of the pompousness and us and them mentality.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #22

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    As keeping a totally natural hive is actually illegal
    maybe in your state, but that may not be the case in all places.

    there are some folks who do get a bit "over-bearing" and holier than thou in the "natural" camp, I agree, but that also certainly pertains to the antagonists in the "modern" beekeeping camp as well.

    and I don't think that applies to or reflects all the people who are making those efforts, one way or the other, in general. As usual, it only takes a few, loudmouth apples, to blow the whole discussion into ridiculous proportions.

    This is one reason I am on my own soapbox so often about definitions and terminology. people want to define things for themselves or bend meanings to make themselves feel better or look better, but it is those definitions that allow for practical and relevant discussion among a large number of people.

    terms like "natural" "chemical-free" "modern" "traditional" really are so vague as to be unhelpful to these discussions. Not only can they be mis leading by those wanting to "sell" their story to others on the 'pro' side, they are also easy to distort and be so vague as to make hings misleading or deceptively argumentative on the 'anti' side.

    Anyways, I think we, you and I, are essentially on the same page but to bring this all back around to the Warre discussion, From my experience and reading of Warre's book, he was as much about working with bees in a 'naturalistic' system as he was about trying to use bees natural biology and behaviors of building comb and storing surplus honey to a persons advantage.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Yes, as stated, the Warré, in it's pure form as designed by Ēmile, is the most "natural" of the three main available hive designs.

    However this has to be weighed up against how we may want to be using the bees and what WE want from them, and the management has to be considered in the light of the world as it is now, with a lot more challenges for bees.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #24

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    However this has to be weighed up against how we may want to be using the bees and what WE want from them
    I couldn't agree more.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  5. #25
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Well, here's a question then:

    Why NOT a warre? I mean, for those of you who have used one, what are the detractors? And for those of you who have considered one, why haven't you put them into practice; what's your hesitation?

    For me, it's three things:

    1 - I worry about boxes full of fused comb, that I can't easily get into for inspection.

    2 - I worry that the boxes are too small, so the combs are too small, and that the division into these tiny boxes isn't really efficient. I also worry that you're going to get an unnecessarily tall pile of little boxes to accommodate a bumper year with a good colony.

    3 - If I want the "pile-of-boxes" approach to creating a bee-friendly cavity, why wouldn't I just go with a Lang, and get the added benefits of the larger pool of support and shared experience, and available tools? If I want "top bar simplicity" - then I feel like I should just go with the ktbh.


    Adam

  6. #26
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    Oct 2010
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    vancouver, bc
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    I think that is perhaps THE question, Adam: Why NOT a Warre?

    With the "fused comb" issue, I agree- even inspecting from the underside of the box, how much can you really see?

    And the skyscraper of boxes you could get when the flow is on... not only nadiring and taking off honey, but what about wind? Anyone with experience on this? I can just picture coming to a beeyard after a summer thunderstorm and seeing all your hives toppled over. Ouch.

    My purpose for starting this thread wasn't to debate the meaning of "natural" beekeeping, or even opinions and ideals of the Warre method, but to take a very objective, practical, hard look at the advantages and disadvantages of Warre. To me, there's a reason why it is becoming more and more popular and of interest to beekeepers, it must have merit that people sense. For something to stand, it should be able to withstand unbiased testing, don't ya think?

  7. #27
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    Dec 2009
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    Kingsley, MI. USA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Ok, you guys are moving into the realm of nonsensical discussion, now.

    How are boxes that are the same volume as 8 frame mediums and larger than 10 frame shallows tiny?

    We have awesome flows here in northern Michigan and I have only ever used five boxes at once. Plenty manageable for me. (I am 5'6" 150 lbs., 39 years old and in good health). A lang with two deeps and 5 shallow supers isn't much different...only slightly shorter and the boxes aren't more manageable.

    Wind is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. Remember that wind system that moved through the mid-west at the end of last summer? We had sustained winds of 50 mph and gusts of 75mph for about 3 days. None of my (unsecured) hives went anywhere. If you're worried about it, use hive staples.

    As far as inspections go, that's part of the point of using these things, guys. If you want to be able to pick your bees' home apart...don't use one. You can monitor and treat for varroa without going in. 99% of the time, the bees are better off if you stay out.

    The main reason for using Warres is and always has been better wintering on fewer stores (I think you guys are not taking this into consideration). If you think you can overwinter your bees in a lang on 25 lbs. or less of honey, I dare you to try it.

    I still run one lang that I overwinter on two deeps. They consume over 100 lbs. of honey and I have to start feeding them fondant in March to keep them from starving. It's getting pretty old.

    Chris.
    Last edited by beez2010; 02-08-2011 at 06:09 PM. Reason: sp, punc.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Chris, umm... "nonsensical discussion"... why so cranky? I do agree that often these forums end up going around in circles until they dry up, but I think people are really trying to think things through and look at all the angles, no need for insults.

    You have experience and information, thanks for sharing your info. That's what people need to hear- real, proven field-experience on Warres, I appreciate it.

  9. #29

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    another thing to consider about Warres is that many people consider the wax to be a product of the hive as well. It is used to make soaps, candles, skin creams, lip balms and so much more. It has retail value that can be appreciable.

    The "fused comb" will get crushed and melted down in a warre hive typically. leaving boxes with top bars ready for newly drawn wax comb that is not potentially "polluted" with residual buildup of pesticides, etc over a long period of time.

    in a business that uses warre hives, you must consider using all that is available from the hive at extraction time.

    Most often, extraction from Warre hives involves crush and strain methods that leave the wax comb in no condition to be re-used in the hive bodies. Using it to make other retail or wholesale products improves the income potential of that business.

    In this day and age, one might consider adding pollen traps to the hives to collect and sell that as well in a business operation. collected clean propolis from propolis traps can add to that income potential, just as they can in other types of hives.

    you say you have read his book, he discussed much of what I mention in there.

    One of his primary purposes of writing the book was to help poor people in his region become self sufficient and find ways to generate income with beekeeping. That's practically what the book is about.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    I'm not being cranky or insulting. I just thought that the references to "skyscrapers" made from "tiny" boxes were a little silly, that's all.

    Chris

  11. #31

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Chris, would we call that the "leaning tower of beesa"?
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  12. #32
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    Des Moines County, IA, USA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    As keeping a totally natural hive is actually illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbearomaha View Post
    maybe in your state, but that may not be the case in all places.
    Really?

    BigBear you are well informed, experienced, wise and knowledgable.

    So what state or states in these U.S. of A. do not require comb that can be inspected without destruction?


    Chris, I don't think you're cranky or insulting, he's just trying to poke ya and see how high you jump.
    Push, Pull, or get Out of the Way

  13. #33

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    BigBear you are well informed, experienced, wise and knowledgable
    .

    I don't know about all that.

    Nebraska for one. The states beekeeping laws were repealed only a few years ago.

    It is then up to each locality to determine whether to allow beekeeping within city/county limits, most of those rules based on space on property and having water sources ,etc.. available.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  14. #34
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    Clifford Township, PA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    I don't know of any states where it isn't illegal, but there are states that simply do not bother inspecting home aparies unless asked, focusing instead, and when they wish, on commercial operations. I noticed this again yesterday when I was looking up Georgia's regulations on their state website.

    Wayne

  15. #35
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    Portland, OR, USA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Oregon as far as I'm aware doesn't have a "frame" or "inspectable" comb law.

    Cheers,
    Matt

  16. #36
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Well that's interesting. Yesterday I heard it said on the basis of a guys experience, that not inspecting hives has never been shown to increase disease or problems.

    Then Today I read your link Bear, about deregulation on Nebraska.

    I quote direct from your link -

    'LB 835—Change Provisions of the Nebraska Apiary Act (Kremer)
    LB 835 deregulates Nebraska’s beekeeping industry. The bill
    amends the Nebraska Apiary Act, eliminating the requirement that
    bee colonies be registered and inspected by the Nebraska Department
    of Agriculture. The bill also provides that beekeepers no
    longer need to obtain a permit to bring bees into the state.
    This reduced regulation reflects the decline of beekeeping in Nebraska.
    The number of registered apiaries fell by more than half in
    the last decade and because there was a corresponding decline in
    inspections, it became difficult for the department to maintain its
    inspection program.
    LB 835 passed 39-0 and was approved by the Governor on
    End quote

    Clearly there is good reason for hives to be regularly inspected.

    I'll post this in the other thread also.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 02-08-2011 at 04:48 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #37

    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    as I mentioned there, I'll repeat for you here.

    There law repeal had nothing to do with how hives are managed or due to particular management methods.

    take your bias elsewhere please.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  18. #38
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    Dec 2009
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    Kingsley, MI. USA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Michigan repealed it's movable frames law (enacted in 1913) in 1993. It is perfectly legal to keep bees in a skep or anything else we want. We are finding from our customers, also, that there are many states who's inspectors are not enforcing movable frame laws when it comes to hobby beekeeping.

    Bigbear, don't let the old man get you down. He can't help it....he's upside down! The blood's rushing to his head!

    Relax, OT. I'm just joking, but honestly, you have a very bad habit of taking the wrong meanings from what you read. You totally misconstrued the meaning of what you have outlined in red and have twisted it (probably unintentionally) into what you think it says. You have done this so many times in the past that I have lost count.

    Chris
    Last edited by beez2010; 02-08-2011 at 07:41 PM. Reason: sp

  19. #39
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by beez2010 View Post
    I'm not being cranky or insulting. I just thought that the references to "skyscrapers" made from "tiny" boxes were a little silly, that's all.

    Chris
    Silly or not depends largely on one's perspective. Mine is presently from the perspective of the uninitiated, when it comes to the warre. Bear with me.

    The boxes seem "tiny" to me in terms of footprint. 12"x 12" seems tiny compared to 13"x 19" or larger. (I guess you're accounting for the frames when you say that the warre box and medium 8 lang are the same - fair enough.) And I guess when the bees have glued things together and there is some weight in the boxes, they are not so likely to topple over, but I have seen a number of images where people have belted their Warre's to their stands, so I'm not the only one to read them as potentially precarious in their appearance. I'm glad to hear of your experience with them in the wind, as this could mean that the fear is unfounded.

    Truthfully, I am trying to do my best to discover the best all-around way to keep bees, from a hive design standpoint. I can build or obtain each major hive type and try it, and very likely will. But here in February, when I've just shoveled my car out for the second time today, online discussion of the merits and detractors of hive designs seems like the perfect bee-related thing to do, as I decide what to try this season.

    I would actually LOVE to discover that the warre or modified warre was the perfect hive. It's pretty easy to build, and is said to winter well. So whatever people have to offer that supports it is interesting to me.


    Adam

  20. #40
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    Dec 2009
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    Kingsley, MI. USA
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    Default Re: More Warre Discussion

    Actually, OT, if I was to read what you have in red up there and try to make an argument about inspections, I would say that it appears to indicate that Nebraska's inspection program caused apiaries to decline by 50% in the state!

    Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

    www.thewarrestore.com

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