Never another hive named Lillith

[Claressa]

This is mostly a vent but I am also interested in all opinions on going forward. I started beekeeping in April 2009 with two packages from Rossman which is less than 100 miles from here. Both queens were superseded by July and one, Lillith, didn't make it through the Atlanta floods. I ordered another package for 2010 from the same supplier and a queen from BeeWeaver, thinking I might be able to split the surviving hive by her May arrival. Instead, the new queen arrived just in time to save them from queenlessness. The new package, a rechristened Lillith, took off well and I mostly left them alone except for mite counts (they never had more than 2). The old hive, Galadriel, went into September in two medium 8 frame boxes and Lillith solidly filled one.

Then came the coldest winter I can ever remember. Seriously. We had a white Christmas in Atlanta!

Oh, and did I mention I had a baby in October?

Consequently, late autumn feed was neglected. Both hives had some honey stores but I knew neither had enough. I tried to remember sugar syrup, but I outgrew my beesuit (the don't make a maternity size!) in August and my husband is...well, "forgetful" would be a kind way to put it. I did manage to get about 5 gallons in each by November (a month after my emergency C-section) and some dry sugar on top by the first of December, but I fear the damage was done.

Today is a beautiful sunny day and Lillith is dead. The cluster was about the size of a honeydew, their little bodies deep within the comb, and all 8 frames licked clean. Galadriel seems to be okay and I would appreciate any advice to keep her that way. She still has dry sugar atop and we're predicted to have a solid week of 55+ temps so I'll make some 2:1 syrup for tomorrow. I think I'll also add a quarter sized pollen patty, but I dare not add more for fear of SHBs, with which I currently have period of detente.

Was there a way to save this hive by the time I was physically able to attend to them again? They had two outside frames of pollen and honey, a lovely football shaped brood nest, and a cozy pest-free population as of September - yes, brood with zero mite fall.They actually went into winter in better shape than Galadriel's paltry 4 1/2 frames with no honey from the year before.

Or maybe I should just stop naming hives after the mother of demons and stick to elvish queens.

[David LaFerney]

Or maybe I should just stop naming hives after the mother of demons and stick to elvish queens.

That's probably the main thing, but other than that if you keep dry sugar, or candy pretty much all over the top bars of a small hive like this there is nowhere that the cluster can go that they won't be in contact with the emergency food. Plus it helps to control moisture in the hive.

Also if you mix your pollen (or substitute) with a hard candy recipe it is less attractive to SHB, but still available to the bees.

It seems to be working for me (so far) - all ten of mine looked lively today.

Good luck.

[Vance G]

Any fool can immediately see your problem!! The names are all wrong. You need tough survivor names. Like Unsinkable Molly Brown or Molly Maguire--No don't use sweet Molly Malone, she gave up! Otherwise, it sounds like you know what to do and were just because of circumstances, unable to do it. I know you will have good luck going on! :<}

[hoodswoods]

Little confused about how your hives were configured going into winter, could you elaborate? I'm over here in Roswell - lost my first year hive (too few bees), 2 (now combined) made it so far this year.

[Claressa]

Little confused about how your hives were configured going into winter, could you elaborate?

All of my equipment is 8 frame medium boxes. I left the SBB open and just put in an entrance reducer (not a mouse guard) in November - the same as last year. The dead hive had mostly filled the outside frames with honey (little of it capped) and pollen. The inner 6 frames had brood in the center/bottom with concentric rings of pollen and honey above. There were enough bees to cover the top bars of all the frames and they seemed thick over the brood area. I think the cluster was slightly smaller than a basketball going into winter. Was that what you meant, hoodswoods?

I pulled the covers off Galadriel today to give her a pint of syrup and a Megabee patty. There was about a tennis ball worth of bees on the dry sugar still on the top bars. I did see one of the girls flying off with a suspicious white crystal but I'm hopeful that the majority of them were eating and not discarding the sugar. Several of the girls immediately flew out when I removed the inner cover, but they all settled back on the sugar quickly. I didn't pull any frames because, frankly, there's not much more I can do for them besides the patty and syrup.

I'm going to concentrate on the silver lining. With the starved hive at least now I have some spare drawn comb.

[hoodswoods]

Particularly interested on how many hive boxes you had stacked on each other - from your description, it sounds as tho you had 2, single-box (mediums) hives.

[Scrapfe]

This is mostly a vent but I am also interested in all opinions on going forward. I started beekeeping in April 2009 with two packages from Rossman... Then came the cold... We had a white Christmas in Atlanta!

By way of comparison I re-started the same time as you with two packages from Rossman, one colony is now in five mediums and strong, the weaker is in four.

I need to go through both colonies soon to see if I should reduce space before SHB numbers build up before the bees do..

I also had health issues that kept me out of the hives until fall fell. We get similar snowfall and slightly lower tempts here than Atlanta, being about as far North as Rome or Recida... Ga.

[Claressa]

Particularly interested on how many hive boxes you had stacked on each other - from your description, it sounds as tho you had 2, single-box (mediums) hives.

Lillith had one full medium box. Galadriel has two, but she had overwintered in somewhat less than one the year before.

By way of comparison I re-started the same time as you with two packages from Rossman, one colony is now in five mediums and strong, the weaker is in four.

I've never had more than 3 boxes at a time! What am I doing wrong? Linda T. lives less than 7 miles from me and she regularly gets 50+ pounds from her 6 deep/medium hives. I feed when she does, inspect with about the same regularity, check mite counts frequently... The two differences I can think of are that all of my queens have had supersedures and my hives are in a shady spot. She has had good luck with swarms, so I would think the same drones are servicing our queens. Are Rossman queens not right for me? Is direct sunlight that important?

[David LaFerney]

Hives that are in the sun seem to have fewer beetles - I don't know why, but others share that experience.

It sounds like either your bees have really failed to thrive or they've swarmed when you weren't looking. I also started with Rossman bees in May of 2009 - 1 package - and I'm up to 21 8 frame medium boxes of comb/bees at this point in 10 hives. Without adding any more bees. And, I'm pretty sure that I lost 3 swarms last year.

How are you doing mite counts? My mite counts almost always show at least a dozen or so even in the best of times. Too many to count at others, but so far I haven't lost a hive.

I shouldn't have said that.

[Claressa]

Hives that are in the sun seem to have fewer beetles - I don't know why, but others share that experience.

I don't have any sunny place on my property to place them. In the winter there's no leaf cover, but in the summer they're in dappled shade. I had a bit of a problem with SHBs the first year but not so much in 2010. I put out some nematodes in 2009 and had Hood SHB traps in both hives in 2010. I got a total of maybe 200 all year in the traps and never saw more than 5 in the hive (by comparison, Linda regularly say dozens under the inner cover alone). So I don't think I hit the economic threshold there.

It sounds like either your bees have really failed to thrive or they've swarmed when you weren't looking.

I had my queens marked this year and they are still there (the bright blue marked queen was on top of the pile of dead bees in Lillith.) Doesn't the old queen always leave with the swarm? Besides, I am always looking! I can see the apiary from most windows in my house and all my neighbors know I have bees - including the nosy apiphobe who walks her dog 5 times a day. It's hard to imagine not noticing them going.

Failure to thrive sounds about right, but why? I don't think I'm doing things very differently from Linda but I get vastly different results.

I also started with Rossman bees in May of 2009 - 1 package - and I'm up to 21 8 frame medium boxes of comb/bees at this point in 10 hives. Without adding any more bees. And, I'm pretty sure that I lost 3 swarms last year.

Envy!!!!

How are you doing mite counts? My mite counts almost always show at least a dozen or so even in the best of times. Too many to count at others, but so far I haven't lost a hive.

I do a 24 hour count from the sticky board after a powdered sugar shake every 10-14 days. I did manage to keep up with the shakes in 2010 since it didn't require heavy lifting. My highest count was 212 in Galadriel last May when she had 3 boxes during the main honey flow. Her counts were usually 30-40 in spring/summer and less than 10 in fall. Lillith never had more than 2 mites fall and had 0 Sept-Nov and I never saw her without brood.

I shouldn't have said that.

No you probably shouldn't

[David LaFerney]

If you only have shade then don't worry about it. I know of a hobby bee keeper in my area who gets really large honey harvests and at least some of his monster hives are in the woods based on pictures I've seen - so it's not a deal breaker. It sounds like you have SHB and mites under control - more so than I do.

I've never done sugar shakes, but I understand that you can kill open brood by gumming it up - You might want to look into that. A bit of benign neglect might actually be a good thing. Or you might want to alternate with other methods like drone brood trapping. Or just monitor until you start to get a problem. Maybe keep something like Apiguard handy - which is based on thymol thyme herbal extract - just in case you need to get serious.

Or just avoid any further references to demon/goddesses.

[hoodswoods]

My opinion is that a single medium, by itself, is not enough bees and stores to make it thru a cold, non-productive (nectar and pollen-producing blooms) winter. I'm amazed that you made it thru last year. I had 2 stacked 10 frame deeps and the bees died with 50# of honey, nectar and pollen left in the hive.

My bees died because there weren't enough of them to keep warm. Your bees died because they ran out of food. We could read posts and threads for hours trying to figure out the underlying causes (shade, beetles, moths, mites, cell-size, nosema, ccd, bee-type, drought, rain, moisture, patties, candy, mountain camp...). Those are issues we want to study to make sure we have lots of bees and bee food.

I want plenty of bees to go into winter & plenty of stores for them to eat. If I have to combine multiple hives to create that, I will. Since you're running 8-frame mediums, I suggest that your established hive(s) start out with at least 2 boxes in early spring and try and work that up to 3 or more by the fall - as soon as they have 3/4 or so of the top box built-out, add another and feed 1:1 as long as they take it. If you package or nuc a new hive in spring, I would want the second box on top by late june.

It is all about numbers. People over-wintering 4-frame nucs (remember these are stacked to help with warmth) are looking at 3+ frames of food for the winter haul, so a 3-to1 ratio sounds about right to me, but the number 1 in the ratio has got to be enough to get to the number 3 while maintaining the required cluster temp and size.

2 penny's.

[Claressa]

I'd never heard that powdered sugar actually killed bees! I know people who think it doesn't do any good, but I didn't think it could cause harm. I will certainly keep an eye on that.

hoodswoods, I'm sure you're right: Too few stores and bees. Like I said, this is mostly a vent because I knew both hives were light going into winter. Thanks for the timeline. Since we're practically neighbors that should be very helpful.

I've got another package on order and a new box ready to go. I think I'll name this one Tomyris. Maybe I'll have better luck with a warrior queen.

[David LaFerney]

I guess you can kill open brood with just about any kind of powdered substance. There is a queen rearing method where you cover the larva that you want to become queens, and then kill the rest by sprinkling them with flour.

[Claressa]

If you subscribed to this thread I thought you might like an update. My surviving hive is going gangbusters - I've already harvested about 50 lbs of honey and think I can reasonably expect that much more again before the dearth. She (Galadriel) has now been joined by 4 other hives...

One of whom is named Lillith. I had to. It was the only box I had left when I got my packages then caught a swarm from Galadriel. So, if nothing else, I've learned never to say "never". Maybe the third time will be the charm.

Here's hoping you all have a marvelous season!

[sevenmmm]

The hive that stings me the most I am going to name Manual after an acquaintance of mine.