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  1. #41
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Let's see what I have on this thread:

    http://aziendagraria.uniud.it/pubbli...103greatti.pdf

    http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/Girolami.pdf

    http://www.prodinra.inra.fr/prodinra...7031949794.pdf

    The first one is about how seed drills pulverize the neonic seed coat on maize, and the dust can blow across fields (off target effect).

    The second one shows that guttation drops from neonic treated corn kills bees within minutes (another off target effect).

    The third one shows that neonics, even at sublethal/undetectable doses, increases the pathogenicity of Nosema (potentiation effect) while suppresing glucose oxidase/colony immunity (immune suppression).

    So, neonics can kill during planting, during the first few weeks of growth, can 'potentiate' a known honeybee pathogen afterwards, and then suppress colony immunity.

    So, it's obvious that neonics can not only go off target and kill directly, but even at undetectable levels, they can cause Nosema to become more deadly.

    Have I left anything out?

    Off target effects, pathogen potentiation, and immune suppression.

    I'd say that neonics have a few problems.

  2. #42
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    Jul 2008
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    Limestone Co, Alabama
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    1,674

    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Quote Originally Posted by woodhinge View Post
    ... My latest understanding is that there is more CCD ...with hives/bees transported for pollination...
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    ... 1/3rd of the CCD problem is directly related to mites and the treatments used to deal with them...
    If I understand the problem, bees fed on during the pupa stage by varroa mites, emerge from the cell with deformed wings. These bees then try to leave the hive to begin the final chapter in their life cycle, field foraging, but when they leap off the landing board, they find they cannot fly and thus are unable to orient themselves to their hive's location. Does this sound right to you? If so, read on.

    Thus, these deformed wing bees are only able to crawl aimlessly around on the ground where they soon become hopelessly lost or else easy meals for every frog, field mouse, finch and fire ant that happens along. Faced with a dwindling population, the queen and a few of her remaining court may abscond, leaving behind a hive full of stores, this could be why (it seems to me) there are so many "small" or poorly timed swarms reported now.

    BTW, isn't absconding how Africanized bees or AHBs evolved to deal with Small Hive Beetles? If the bees time it right this strategy will work on varroa mites as well visa via a break in brood rearing.

    Oh well, with as little as I know about bees, these symptoms may go unnoticed and thus unreported in large aperies where (it also seems to me) most cases of CCD are reported and where hives may go for months on end without human intervention. Until oneday somebody signes a pollination contract and then notices his bees are gone

    Beekeepers being humans, and humans being... well human, few of are willing to fess up to our own failures and mistakes, we would rather look anywhere besides in the mirror to find the guilty them, when the guilty them is staring back at us from the looking glass. Besides we have paid for our bees and equipment once, it may behoove us to try to force an innocent third party or an evil neonicotiniods manufacturer to pay for them a second, third or fourth time. s
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  3. #43
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    Aug 2003
    Location
    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
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    992

    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Please bud ...saying neonnics is an improvement over organpho...is like saying drinking 12 beers and driving is am improvement over drinking 24 and driving...yes its an improvement but still not good! By the way I talked to Mr. Hackenberg....you were right when study ended not alot of differance in survival rate of control colonies vs nictiniod colonies....until NOv when all nictinoid colonies died....he said byaer realize something was happening and pulled plug....ended study...My money is on Mr Hackenberg....bayer stands to loose too much if they dont sell these chemicals. I also agree 100 percent with Barry....checkmite should have been pulled long ago! I personally know a beekeeper who has lost many colonies who for the past 10 years hasnt used any off label chemicals or checkmite or apistan...he uses formic and thymol. Sells nucs so all comb less than 5 yrs old...still lost 2/3 two years ago....all in NOv> His bees are for honey production but in area heavily farmed for vegs andheavy pesticide usage....some day down the road Bud will eat crow is my prediction!

  4. #44
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    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chippew County, WI, USA
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    650

    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    suttonbeeman

    Can you give more info on this study you speak of with reference to hackenburg?

    Can anyone post a study that proves neonics or specific neonics are safe? And I mean one where the bees actually worked the plant and not an acre in the middle of a thousand. A short study proves nothing. The long term effects need to be evaluated. If bees lives are shortened two days you wont notice. But what if queens feed from the contaminated pollen fail sooner? Why not take pollen from several different neonic plants and then from several same but non neonic plants and feed to colonies over a year or two period and evaluate the differences in the colonies. If this or something similar has been done I would like to know about it. If not, I would like to know why not.

    To me it seems strange that if these neonics are so safe that Bayer or the like does not just conduct real competent long term studies that would get everyone off their back. It would be a good business decision and benefit their image and in the end boost profits. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me they are dodging the ball and that makes my suspicious.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Here's a Master's Thesis from the Evergreen State College:

    http://archives.evergreen.edu/master..._daMES2010.pdf

    "The Effects of Pesticide-Contaminated Pollen on Larval
    Development of the Honey Bee, Apis mellifera"

    You might want to follow the references trail.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,670

    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Does this sound right to you?
    It may sound right in and of itself, but you totally missed the part about the chemicals used to treat for mites.
    Regards, Barry

  7. #47
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    Nov 2009
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    Munfordville, Ky. U.S.A.
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Barry,
    I couldn't agree with you more. in my last post #23 at the end I purposely stated pesticides, and not just neonictinoids. I think that it goes against any common sense to put any kind of pesticide, whether it be gathered by the bees inadvertently, or installed by the beekeeper himself. These threads on neonicatinoids only show that the research or studys can be flawed.
    I will state once again that I believe that CCD is often times reported as such when the actual death of the hives were from Varroa, or other parisites, or nosema, or just bad beekeeping. I believe in these cases that upon careful examination there going to be more dead bees found, (and yes scrapfe lots with dwv) than with cases where they are dying from pesticides. And I believe the majority of the CCD deaths are from neonicatinoids.
    As I have stated just because your hives are in an area where corn or other poisoned crops are growing doesn't mean that they are going to gather pollen or dew from these poisoned plants. If they have other more desirable sources available to them they are not likely to be killed off by the poisons, and yes it is poison to them and I predict in the future we will find that we humans, because of our greed, and refusal to accept the hand writing on the wall as some on here are doing, will understand that the poisons, and especially neonicatinoids are the cause of a lot of our health problems.
    As I have also stated I will not use any treatments in my few hives for pest. I will treat nosema, and put traps for SHB.
    So much to learn, so little time!!

  8. #48
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    Aug 2003
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    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    well said valleyman! The study involving Mr. hackenberg is on another threat on here.... one thing I've noticed is our bees arent living as long...thats why I think our colony population drops off so much in fall, while I made a nice crop on orange last year and clover in ky I dont think the hives reached the population that they did 20 yrs ago. I believe with the clover bloom I had in Ky I should have had a 250 lb ave like I did in 1982. I have talked to many beekeepers who agree with me. You just dont see that many old bees with frayed wings and my colonies are very gentle even on bad bee working days...no as many old grumpy bees. Most of bees in hives come early winter are young... and yes valley man I believe we may be shortening our life span eating all the contaminated food we eat.....god knows what is in it...especially from china!

  9. #49
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    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Quote Originally Posted by suttonbeeman View Post
    You just dont see that many old bees with frayed wings and my colonies are very gentle even on bad bee working days...no as many old grumpy bees.
    excellent, its one of those things that I have noticed, but the light bulb never came on to realize why. thanks
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  10. #50
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    Jul 2008
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    Default Re: Japanese campaign against neonicotinoids

    Here is a field guide from a German enviromental group.
    http://www.oisat.org/downloads/field_guide_corn.pdf

    I wish to enter into evidence this field guide for “chemical” free corn production issued by the Pesticide Action Network (PAN) of Hamburg, Germany. [url]This is part of PAN’s prolog or mission statement beginning with paragraph two (2):

    “Overall aim of the Pesticide Action Network (PAN) is to eliminate the use of hazardous pesticides, reduce overall use, risk and dependence on pesticides and increase support for community-based control over a sustainably produced food supply…”

    On page nine (9) of Pesticide Action network’s web sight are nineteen (19) recommendations for eliminating or reducing, environmental exposure to pesticides. Below I have reproduced the first THREE recommendations. I wish to call your attention to recommendation #3 and I have taken the liberty of reproducing this recommendation in a color highlight format to draw your attention to this recommendation. Please read PAN’s recommendation carefully.

    “1. Learn to identify the pests and other causal agents and the natural enemies.
    [Sorry, some things in German don’t translate well into English.]

    2. Select the proper corn variety that is well adapted to your local conditions.

    3. Always select good and disease-free seeds. If possible, treat seeds to kill seed borne pathogens and insect pests.”

    Again, I wish to point out that the highlighted sections from the Pesticide Action Network’s field guide for growing corn are highlighted by me and not by the Pesticide Action Network.

    Now what part of the words TREAT, SEED, KILL, PATHOGENS, or INSECT PESTS do we not understand? Germany is not a big bad wooly corn producer either, Deutschland produces less corn than Serbia. But to give you an inkling of how much more productive modern agriculture is, Germany produces about as much wheat as Pakistan, but Pakistan needs 4 times more land planted to wheat just to produce the same amount of bread as Germany.
    All this information is available from the following web sight.
    http://www.nue.okstate.edu/Crop_Info...Production.htm

    I also wish to point out that the above web sight’s opening graphic shows the kind of existence or life style the anti chemical cabal has in their mind for you, it isn’t a kind and gentle life either but do take the time to look. What are you willing to bet that the man pictured planting corn in this graphic IS NOT planting Poncho treated corn? I wish you all well in this brave new world you have chose for yourselves and your children to live in. But what ever you do, don’t blame me, I repeatedly tried to warn you and tried to show you what was lurking just around the corner, but you seem determined to turn and go down that dead end street on your own. Good luck. Now please pass the Southern Fried Chicken, and hand me that platter of corn on the cob there will you? Anybody seen my TV remote?

    Oh, please excuse me, I almost forgot. On page #40 of PAN’s field guide to a chemical free enviroment is a list of corn pest control products (other than chemical pesticides) recomended by PAN for use on corn. These "non" chemical pesticides range from spraying corn with home rolled pyrethrum, a bee deadly "NON-CHEMICAL" chemical pesticide extracted from marrygolds and mums by steeping mum and merrygold flowers in the deadly solvent alcohol, to PAN's recomendation to use lemongrass extract and sticky boards to control corn pests. Say, isn't that some of the same advise you hear now-a-days for controling mites in your bee hives? Tell me everyone, how’s that advise working for YOU?
    Last edited by Scrapfe; 01-28-2011 at 08:01 PM.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

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