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  1. #201
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kingston, Kingston, Jamaica
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    What a great thread Oldtimer and just in time for me to catch and read it.
    I will be using your method to raise queens for the first time and with your lessons here, i can't miss

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Thanks Cheech, all the best.

    Is there a queen breeding industry in Jamaica or do people just breed for themselves?

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kingston, Kingston, Jamaica
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    OT, I'm new to beekeeping, just started studying it Nov. last year.
    Haven't heard of a queen farm as such, but talked to some experienced keepers in my area who indicate they would sell queens. So I imagine there are some who do raise some queens but most I hear increase by splits.
    I'm kinda partial to the Mike Palmer way of thinking, so I intend to be doing some queen raising on a small scale for hobby purposes

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Yes well you won't do much better than using Michael Palmers methods, and not just for the queen rearing side.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Sibiu, Romania
    Posts
    110

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    I think grafting is not the best way to raise queens and therefore this method that Jay Smith described in his book is better indeed.

    I grafted 30 cells these days and put them in an open starter. After a couple of hours I wanted to see how the larvae are fed and I noticed they were not fed at all. I made 17(I have another 20 or so that are not mated yet) queens so far this year all by grafting method and this time the failure was almost total.

    The cell builder was made by M. Palmer method just that it was only on 6 frames. What I did a bit different was that I put the breeding frame into the starter from the beginning. I did this before on the previous batches and it worked nice.

    After noticing the failure I just took the frame I grafted from and cut long pieces of comb which I welded on the bars collapsing it at intervals. The bees started a lot of queen cells using this method.

    I'm sure I did something wrong along the way but this proves that this method is less prone to error then grafting.

    What do you think?

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Goodmorning,
    Oldtimer I ask you a little help. I would like to know the dimensions of the cages you put Queens (Queens bank) and size of the box to the construct. Also how many millimeters are in mesh cages? If if you want send me the information to email my email: melissosfaira@gmail.com Thanks

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting








  8. #208
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer thanks for the prompt reply. I was delighted with the photos. I will construct immediately. thanks again

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Would you help me with dimensions for a cage for Queen so that the intros to beehive? Unless you do not mind and apologize if I ask you to help again

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting






  11. #211
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Thanks very much for the effort you made for me .. It's very good. I would only ask for the small wood that is placed inside. Why put it? The hole to close with food? What opening put the food? Sorry for my questions

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    That wood is to separate off the candy compartment. If there is too much candy where the caged bees come in contact with it they can get sticky so there is just enough room for one bee.

    With these wooden cages losses in the post and in introductions are lower than with plastic cages. Best to use the same size mesh as shown in the queen bank cages it protects the queen from getting her feet chewed on by the bees but the holes are big enough for a bees tongue.

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer I upload my small structure to see if it is right.
    I would also like to ask for the method with the three parts (an orphan and the other with queen or two orphans sections and one with queen) if the use and know about it. Upload a photo. With this large hive you can do everything. Production royal jelly, rearing queen bees, honey and pollen production. I am looking for literature for this method. If you know a book to buy. Thanks again
    t1.jpg
    t2.jpg
    method.jpg

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer I upload my small structure to see if it is right.
    I would also like to ask for the method with the three parts (an orphan and the other with queen or two orphans sections and one with queen) if the use and know about it. Upload a photo. With this large hive you can do everything. Production royal jelly, rearing queen bees, honey and pollen production. I am looking for literature for this method. If you know a book to buy. Thanks again
    t1.jpg
    t2.jpg
    method.jpg

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    The cage looks good!

    Just make sure the queen can fit through the gap between the small block of wood and the side of the cage. I also usually put candy in that gap also because the bees in the cage eat some of it, so it stops them eating into the main block of candy. I also put a bit of greaseproof paper on the top of the candy, between the candy and the wire mesh, it stops the bees in the hive eating the candy too fast through the mesh.

    The method you talk about with the hive with three parts, I don't think I use that method or know anything about it.

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer thanks again for the help and what detailed instructions

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    Posts
    174

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer,

    The endurance of interest in this thread is an indication of it's value.

    My question refers to the care and feeding of mating nucs. I have been successful up to the point of setting up mating nucs with bees and one or sometimes two queen cells. The success rate is close to zero. I find a queenless small population of bees and an emerged queen cell in the mating nucs after a waiting period of 3 weeks. I suspect a robbing problem since I was feeding the nuc with sugar syrup enhanced with Honey Bee Healthy. The feeder was an inverted mason jar mounted over a hole in the cover of the nuc.

    So with that given, what do you think caused the queenless mating nucs and how can I prevent this in the future. How did you set up your mating nucs when you did this commercially.

    Thanks for this very practical thread.

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Hi Morris that's a great question, sorry to hear of your issues though. Nowadays I'm using all standard Lang gear I don't feed syrup to nucs at all they get a comb of honey, which is much the safest way in terms of robbing, although if there is ever AFB in an outfit then feeding honey is a risk. However to the question of what commercial queen raisers do, they feed syrup. However the nuc or mini nuc used is normally carefully designed around discouraging robbing. There is normally a tiny entrance with the syrup as far as possible from the entrance. Mostly in mini nucs the syrup container is around the size of a coffee cup and the nucs are only given just enough to keep them alive for the required time.

    A mason jar is the safest way to feed syrup as the bees will cluster under it and robbers cannot get a look in, unlike some other types of feeders that the bees just cannot defend. However robbing can still be caused if the nuc is overfed. Best plan is to assess how much syrup the nuc could store in available empty comb that the bees can cover and protect when clustered, and only give them that much. If an mount of syrup is given that requires bees to store some in comb they cannot fully cover when clustered, then that's an invitation to robbers if they ever discover it. So too, unfortunately, is Honey Bee Healthy, if the nuc or hive being fed is a possible robbing target then it's best just to not put anything in the syrup that has any smell at all.

    Newly made nucs are prime robbing targets especially if in the same yard as the parent colony they were made from. Until the cell hatches the nuc is queenless and such nucs do not defend themselves as vigorously as a hive with a laying queen. During robbing season I do not have nucs within range of the parent colonies, and keep the amount of food in the nucs down to an amount they can protect.

    You suspect robbing but don't say why. After the event, the signs in a hive that was fed syrup can be less obvious because there are no torn up cappings, mainly because there never were any cappings the feed was all fresh syrup. But a small queenless nuc does not actually eat much once larvae are capped and not needing to be fed. So if you find the nuc with a few bees and markedly less feed in the hive than what you gave them, then yes, that feed had to have gone somewhere, it was likely robbed.

    There are things other than robbing can cause problems with mating also though. As your cells have hatched normally it means you've done everything right up to that point, so frustrating to get piped at the post. The other main issue in these cases can be the site. Although I always ensure there are plenty of drones at my mating sites, for some reason some sites will give poor results while others will get excellent results. The reason for this is not always obvious. So for example I've dropped nucs at a site and got very poor mating of less than 50%, yet the other part of the very same truckload went to a different site and had better than 95% success. Once a poor site is identified I stop using it regardless how ideal it may look. So as you have been successful up to the point of having hatched virgins in the nucs but they failed to mate, it could be worth trying a different site. And the amount of drones in the area IS important. I have sites near dumping sites for commercial beekeepers, they may drop several hundred hives at these sites quite close to my mating yards, at these times mating percentage can be noticeably better due purely to there being literally millions of drones prowling the skies for any flying virgins. Now a days with all the problems bees have, it is not possible to assume we can just put a nuc anywhere and there will automatically be enough drones in the area, we have to ensure that there are.

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    Posts
    174

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Oldtimer,

    Thanks for the quick and informative response. Your advice to supply the mating nucs with enough honey makes a lot of sense. More sense than over feeding.

    Yes you are correct that there was less honey in the mating nucs after placing the queen cells than 3 weeks after. And that was with feeding!

    So with all the given, do you think that the robbers killed the newly emerged queens?

    Are you doing any writing other than beesource? Attending any conferences?

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    7,673

    Default Re: Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

    Yes, most times a nuc gets robbed the virgin fails, don't know if it's actually killed or what, but getting robbed is not great for mating success. Some do make it though, you'll find a robbed out starving nuc with a just mated queen starting to lay eggs, but the nuc too poorly to feed the larvae. Those nucs can be saved with a little CAREFUL feeding, and maybe a cup or two of extra bees. Now they have a laying queen they will defend a lot better.

    No I don't do much other writing or anything, just hang here because Beesource is a wealth of knowledge and useful stuff, anything I want to know I can ask and there will be someone, somewhere, who knows the answer. Plus I like the folks here, enjoy the banter, and most people are kind to me.

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