Raising Queen Cells Without Grafting

[lighto]

If you used Wax cell foundation, putting it on a sheet of plywood. So as to only build one side of cell . will they build the cell ?

[Oldtimer]

Yes, long as the breeder hive is set up right should be fine. Id be inclined to have it in a hive for a few days to get it properly drawn first, before going in with the queen. The queen will probably have to be in a restricted area or she may not lay in it, or use the method where most of the hive is moved away for 24 hours leaving only 2 combs with the queen, lots of bees, and egg comb in the middle.

[Specialkayme]

I don't think I could agree with you more about Emergency queens Oldtimer.

Years ago my beekeeping professor explained the science behind why emergency queens were genetically and biologically inferior to other types of queens. For years I listened to him.

But after spending some time on a few of these forums, and reading about how everyone was splitting using emergency queens and walkaway splits, I decided that if it was working so well for everyone else I guess I'd give it a try. I went into the spring with 6 hives. I ended up making 8 splits (all walkaways, all using emergency queens) making a total of 14 hives. By the end of the fall all emergency queens failed (either the colony failed to make a queen, or it failed to mate, or it's genetics were inferior) and I am now back to 6 hives. I'll never do a walkaway split again, and I will never use emergency queens again.

But, as is said, sometimes you need to fail yourself before you listen to what others tell you.

[scdw43]

Great post.

[David LaFerney]

Thanks. Five star thread.

[Robbo]

Great effort and information - Thanks!!

[Kingfisher Apiaries]

really good thread. Will try in addition to grafting. Or at least a backup plan.

[Michael Bush]

"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith , Better Queens
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterq...gency%20Method

"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmillerm...etostartnuclei

It has everything to do with feeding...

[Oldtimer]

Should have posted this earlier but here goes - the wax melter does not have to be high tech here's what I use.
Don't use for other jobs where you want quality wax though it will burn it over time.

[Specialkayme]

Haha, I like it Oldtimer. Very nice.

Mr. Bush: I have a question for you. I'm not disputing the quotations that you've put up. I've read the books myself (well, not Better Queens) and I know several authors who will dispute that the bees never select a queen that is too old in the emergency queen situation. However, my original beekeeping professor over at the North Carolina State University told me when I was starting out that through his experiments he's seen that in the emergency queen rearing operation within the hive, the bees will select larvae that is between 3 and 5 days old. 5 day old larvae may not bee too old for the hive, however if the hive selects two 3 day old larvae for queen rearing, and two 5 day old larvae for queen rearing, the 5 day old larvae will always emerge before the 3 day old larvae. This results in an emergency queen that has been fed as a worker for two days, then switched to a queen feeding. It would be impossible for the 5 day old larvae to develop and mature as much as a 3 day old larvae would.

I'm afraid I don't know of the study, just learned about it by word of mouth (so you may take it for what it's worth). But have you heard of similar results or studies? What are your thoughts on it?

[Grant]

I'll never do a walkaway split again, and I will never use emergency queens again.

Never say never.

Here's how to make it work. Put a queen excluder in your hive. Make sure the queen(s) are all below and place all your open brood above. The nurse bees will move up to take care of the open brood. And they will make queen cells.

You will get queen cells in the upper box above the excluder. Come back 7 days later and break that upper box into nucs, move the nucs to another bee yard (preferably), feed (very important) and you'll have the easiest, queen-right queen cells you ever saw.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[Michael Bush]

>What are your thoughts on it?

My thoughts are that a walk away split during swarm season, which is when the bees have the resources to feed the queens well, do very well. In a dearth they almost always fail. Sometimes they fail to even get a mated queen laying, but if they do she often isn't very good.

Jay Smith and C.C. Miller are two real beekeepers who kept bees their entire adult live and Jay raised thousands of queens every year and both paid a lot of attention to what was going on. Their observations agree with mine and theirs are based on more experience than mine.

[Specialkayme]

Grant

Your method talks about taking advantage of the swarming impulse, not the emergency impulse. I'm not opposed to taking advantage of a swarm type cell. Nor am I against taking advantage of a supercedure cell. I am not interested in doing walk away splits and I am not interested in removing a queen to "let them make one themselves."

In the case of the walkaway, I'd rather them swarm and I have a chance of catching it then to do a walkaway and probably lose the other half of the split.

In the case of the emergency queen, I'd rather leave a crappy queen in there until she is superceded or I can get a replacement than to remove her and have an emergency queen created.

Personal choice though. I don't fault others for the use of emergency queens. I've just learned my lesson.

[deknow]

let's not pretend that 'walkaway splits' or 'removing the queen'are really any different than 'placing grafts in a cell builder' or the 'smith-like' method that oldtimer illustrates (beautifully)....they are all emergency queens, and there is nothing wrong with emergency queens....as long as they are well fed.

making up a cell builder with lots of nurse bees is one way to insure the young queens are well fed, but there are countless other methods one can use to make sure emergency queens are well fed, but regardless....these are all emergency queens....all produced by bees that find themselves queenless with some young larvae available.

deknow

[David LaFerney]

Is there really a difference? Off subject - I'll start a thread.

[Oldtimer]

Thanks David, here's the thread -

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249524

[humbee]

also 48 hour cells work pretty well when in a pinch for time, the divide will care for them like it is there own. The advantage is you don't have to wait for the nine days for the cell builders to complete them.

[WI-beek]

OldTimer

Fantastic easy to read, step by step queen rearing method. I love it. Thank you for sharing it.

Not to pick at a sore spot but are you unable to see eggs with a magnifying glass? I have a hard time seeing eggs with bare eye. I plan on getting one of those bench clamp style magnifying glass things to clamp right on the hive body when I need better vision.

[Oldtimer]

Thanks WI Beek .

Yes my eyesight isn't THAT terrible, when I'm working hives on a sunny day I can still (just) make out eggs in a black comb, with the sun over my shoulder.
But I've found for grafting, just emerged larvae on a white comb, are much harder to see, they are a lot harder to see than an egg. I bought a big magnifying glass type thing with a light on it, but now that doesn't even do it for me, I've had to give grafting away.

Not to worry though I'm retired and only raising a small number of queens for a hobby. I'm more interested in quality than quantity and cut cell suits me fine. Also my optician tells me it's age related sight degeneration and has got as bad as it's likely to so i should be able to carry on for a while yet!

[Steve10]

Oldtimer

Very nice presentation. I really appreciate the time you invested to help some of us more visually challenged!

Thanks, Steve