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  1. #21
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  2. #22
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    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    4,643

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?
    I get lots of exterior honey frames in my deep 12 frame brood chambers. I was wondering that about 8 frame brood chambers?

  3. #23
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Don't follower boards have the effect of an expanded brood nest area? Seems like I remember that. Or are they used to get bees to draw and fill the outer frames? I forget.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
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    933

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Thank you all for the great answers. I saw some real informative feedback on this other post too.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...963#post603963
    In my hive brood boxes the outer frames get built out with some pretty deep cells and then attached to the side wall of the box itself.
    I trimmed some assembled frames down to 1-1/4" last night to get started with for next year. As previously mentioned the space between the top rails on the trimmed frames is between 1/8" and 1/4" I guess I need a jig when trimming the sidebars. With that being said; will there be an adverse result from alternating the trimmed frames with the standard ones?
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Knox County, Ohio
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    2,709

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?

    When running a single deep with an excluder, I've even found brood on the outer sides.

    is between 1/8" and 1/4" I guess I need a jig when trimming the sidebars. With that being said; will there be an adverse result from alternating the trimmed frames with the standard ones?

    If you're having difficulty maintaining consistent frame width, you may actually want to mix with standard width frames. Bees can't get through a 1/8 gap and the bees will propolize the top bars together.

    Or are they used to get bees to draw and fill the outer frames?

    Follower boards are used to create a false wall that makes the broodnest smaller, so that it is easier for the bees to regulate the broodnest temperature, which will also allow them to expand faster. (as long as you keep babysitting the follower board)

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    1,191

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    When used next to the sidewall, the follower board is not intended nor does is function by making the broodnest smaller. It works because it leaves a dead air space next to the sidewall of the hive. The bees respect that dead air space just like a bee space and rear brood in the comb next to the follower board. One way you can use narrow frames is to put 10 frames in the broodnest and add follower boards of 3/16 inch plywood at the sides.

    If you read the old literature including quite a bit by Miller, Heddon, and Bingham, you will see that several proponents of follower boards used them to severely restrict size of the brood nest thinking it would make a smaller area to heat and therefore easier for the bees to overwinter. This use was proven to be particularly negative for the bees. When the follower board was used in a position other than beside the wall of the hive, it was being used for brood nest restriction.

    I've read above where some are cutting down frames to make them work. Please don't do this. Cut down frames have all the wrong dimensions which leads to heavy brace comb and propolizing of too narrow gaps.

    Maybe I should post the correct dimensions and a drawing of a narrow frame.

    Here are the most critical modifications required.

    1. The top bar must be cut down to 7/8 inch wide. The rest of the dimensions really should be modified but so long as the width is reduced to 7/8 of an inch, it will work. This will leave 3/8 of an inch between top bars which the bees will respect.
    2. The end bar must be 3/8 of an inch thick and 1.25 inches wide. You can figure your own way of making them self-spacing just as long as the final width is 1.25 inches. Please note that the foundation MUST be centered in this 1.25 inch width. If it is even 1/16 of an inch to one side or the other, you will have problems. Why does the end bar have to be 3/8 of an inch thick? Because otherwise the wood will bow and warp when you put wire in it.
    3. If you really want to do the job right, it is best to make the hive body and the frame depth correct for a bee space. Most frames are cut to be about 9 1/8 inches. The Langstroth hive body depth is usually cut at 9 5/8 inches. This leaves 1/2 inch between the top of one frame and the bottom of the frame above it. Bees will ALWAYS build brace comb in gaps of 1/2 inch. Use your discretion about fixing this, either make frames 9 1/4 inches or else cut the hive body down to 9 1/2 inches. A small amount of propolis will accumulate between hive bodies over time which can make this problem worse.

    DarJones
    Last edited by Fusion_power; 12-28-2010 at 12:07 AM.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I have built them with all the dimensions reduced and certainly prefer them. However, Koover was just cutting down the end bars and that's what I end up doing most of the time as well. Yes, you may get small bit of comb between the frames, but it seems pretty irrelevant as it's only at the top bars and easy enough to pry apart.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
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    483

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by KQ6AR View Post
    On the other side of the coin. Earlier in the year one of the bee magazines had an article stating that,
    "8 frame hives build up faster than 10 frame hives in the spring." more bees
    I believe this is a matter of 'less empty space' rather than more bees.

    With 8-frame equiptment (smaller hive bodies) the bees have a smaller volume of space that they need to heat than if they were in a 10-frame hive body. The 8-frame hive will need to move to a second hive body more quickly that the 10-frame hive, both because the smaller box has less space and because the same number of bees will be able to maintain a larger cluster in a smaller hive body and so raise brood more quickly.

    Having experimented with growing hives by always keeping them in a minimum-sized space using nuc boxes and/or follower boards versus giving them twice the volume they need (5-frame nuc in a 10-frame hive body), I can confirm that minimum space is best if you want to grow the hive as efficiently and quickly as possible (though this obviously requires more attention).

    -fafrd

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Knox County, Ohio
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    The top bar must be cut down to 7/8 inch wide. This will leave 3/8 of an inch between top bars which the bees will respect.

    Why MUST the top bar be cut down to 7/8 of an inch?

    I trim my top bars to be 1 inch wide. That leaves a 1/4 gap between top bars. This gap works fine for my bees. I have not found any need to trim my top bars narrower.

  10. #30
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Why MUST the top bar be cut down to 7/8 of an inch?
    Because this is the correct thickness to make uncapping possible. If you have narrow end bars and frames spaced 1.25 inches center to center, a top bar 1 inch wide is just a tad thicker than the resulting comb. If you only use narrow frames in the brood nest, it is not much of an issue, but if you try the narrow frames for honey storage, you need a 7/8 inch top bar so the uncapper will slice across the capped cells. I routinely run some narrow frames for honey storage to get combs built that I then rotate down into the brood nest after extracting.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  11. #31
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    Feb 2009
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Because this is the correct thickness to make uncapping possible.

    Why are you uncapping brood?

    If you only use narrow frames in the brood nest, it is not much of an issue,

    If you will notice the title of the thread, that is what we're discussing.

    but if you try the narrow frames for honey storage, you need a 7/8 inch top bar so the uncapper will slice across the capped cells.

    You must have a different uncapper than mine. I have not found a narrow frame with a 1 inch top bar with honey in it that I couldn't uncap.

    Then again, I try to run 8 or 9 frames evenly spaced in my honey supers - whether or not they are narrow frames is irrelevant.

    If I am trying to get comb drawn on frames with foundation, I sometimes add 1 or 2 frames in a honey super and run 9 frames....or I simply leave the outside frame of the broodnest as a frame of foundation. (This also serves as a way to help reduce swarming.)

    The only frames with foundation that I will use for brood are the plastic PF frames. Many of my brood frames are foundationless frames - and the easiest way to get them drawn as brood comb is to introduce the frames between two frames of brood during the spring expansion.

    If someone actually ran 11 frames in a honey super to get them all drawn out, I'd encourage them to use those honey frames as feed for splits, rather than trying to extract them.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I space supers more like seven in an eight frame box or eight or nine in a ten frame box. They are easy to uncap... but I agree the 7/8" are even easier.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #33
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    Jan 2005
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Countryboy, do it the way you choose.

    I prefer to listen when something tells me things are not quite kosher.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,592

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Countryboy, do it the way you choose.

    Snip
    From the videos I've seen, "Countryboy's" bees don't seem to be suffering too much.

    BTW, I had a problem once while using kosher marshmallows in queen cages... the bees didn't like them.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Its good to get several ideas and others experiences. That way one knows what to expect or anticipate and can adapt for their specific situation. It would be a mistake in my mind to subscribe to one opinion and consider all others invalid.
    To me it appears that beekeeping is a very personal thing that allows adaptations and variations depending on what your goals are. As a hobbiest my style will be greatly different than a commercial beekeeper making a living based upon honey or bee production.
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Last night was our first time assembling frames. We made 1-1/4" thick deep frames using the wax coated black plastic foundation. This time trimming the side and top bars on the jointer before assembly. It went rather easy once we got into a rhythm. We used both glue and a brad nailer. Next thing to do is get the brood boxes converted on the hives. The new package installations will go straight into an 11-frame deep of already drawn comb. The overwintered hive will get converted to an 11-frame brood nest as the three year old frames are replaced.
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  17. #37
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Just curious how this is panning out ccar?

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Littlerock, California, USA
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Well, thanks for asking Fusion.
    I believe 11 frame brood boxes are working out pretty well. At this time I have either five or six 1Ľ” frames alternating with standard size in each of the deep brood boxes. The comb seems to be built out much straighter being next to the already drawn frames. I really like the black foundation for easily spotting eggs. On the sunny side of my stronger hive there is capped brood on the outside face of the outside frame!
    I have not experienced any frame breakage issues with the narrow frames. Actually I purchased a J-hook hive tool and it works very well for removing the first/outside frame
    Interestingly enough, the two packages I installed are at totally different populations. One is just barely using the upper brood box while the other I just installed a medium super on to because both 11 frame brood boxes are covered with bees.
    I do not really have more to report since my experience is limited and the two hives are so different.
    My challenge to date has been having a hive make it through winter and into spring. In February my remaining hive just dwindled down to nothing and died.
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Auburn, NY
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    110

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    A question for those who use same-size bodies and supers (all mediums or all deeps) like MB: if you run 11 frames in the brood nest and 10 or especially 9 or even 8 in the supers (or 9 and 8 or 7 for the 8-framers), I imagine you can no longer move frames of honey (or outlying brood) from a super down into the brood nest because the cells on the super frame make it that much wider, right? That would defeat one of the main reasons for going with all same-size boxes.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I don't usually go to less frames until it's pretty much a dedicated super, which is usually a full box on top of the brood nest that is narrow frame and the box on top of that which is not. I could still put a box of wider spaced honey on top for stores for winter if they were light and i was concerned, but the fat combs don't fit well, as you say. But nothing says spacing has to be a particular constant. I can pull three empty frames out an put in two fat frames of honey...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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