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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Coatesville, Pa, USA
    Posts
    839

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    New beek question. . . If we were able to buy 1-1/4" frames (I just called a few places and 1-3/8" is all they make) what would you be willing to pay knowing that you wouldn't have to cut them down? Would you pay double? My thought is time is money so if we spend time cutting them down then would you rather spend that time on something else perhaps making more than a dollar or so per frame. The reason why I'm asking is I have a friend that has a saw mill and a wood shop and I know he could make them. I want to give him the thoughts so he can see if he could do it and not lose money.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Clark county, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    220

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Well once set up you can shave alot of frames in short time so I doubt many would pay a dollar. But we shall see as you get responses.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,085

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    If you shave just the ears of the frame end bars there is still the issue that you may have made the bee space iffy between the top bars. Fusion power mentions this. Another possible issue, just guessing but you also mess with bee space at the reduced with of the bottom 2/3 of the sidebar. Will that area get burr combed?

    I made a set of 60 narrow frames from raw wood but all the width dimensions got changed to maintain bee space. picture below shown reducing lower width of sidebars. Top bar is 15/16" wide. Too much time spending jig building unless you were going to do many, many, of them. That might get old quick; in fact it just about did!

    With a box of unassembled frames it would not be a big job to run the top bars all through a planer to lose a bit of width and also make a chute to safely run the endbars through to narrow them.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,228

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    It would be nice to get one of the manufacturers to make 1.25 inch frames. I've made my own for the last 34 years.

    The tolerances on narrow frames are very tight. 1/32 of an inch error can be a major problem in a couple of places in the cuts. The cut that makes the most difference in my experience is the groove in the topbar that the foundation fits into. You have to cut it so the foundation fits exactly in the centerline of the topbar. That means you have to allow for the thickness of the foundation. Other than that, make sure the end bars are a full 3/8 of an inch thick. Several manufacturers cut endbars at 5/16 which will bow in a wired narrow frame.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I usually just plane them a little on each side. You could do it with a table saw as well. I only cut down the end bars, although the top bar could use a little trim... but I have never trimmed them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I was actually trimming topbars today. I have about 25 that I was given and I'm making endbars for them. I also have some older frames which I discovered had a naturally narrow topbar, about 1".

    Another idea, I'm beveling the bottom edge (the non wedge side) of the topbars to see of it helps with moving over the gap.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    721

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Next year when i do splits im going to start the rotation of the thicker frames out of the brood nests and rotate in the 1 1/4" frames. I do like the 7/8" top bars though, leaves a 3/8" gap between top bars with 1 1/4" frames. Think i'll leave 4 - 6 of the thicker bars in the brood box though, 2 or 3 on each end, space permitting. Ill make 1 1/4" frames for the mediums if i plan on using mediums as brood boxes. The deeps I have weighed a ton, I might switch out to medium brood boxes.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,558

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    So tell me...with shaved down end bars...the frames become non-self spacing. Does that mean everytime you inspect the broodnest you must finger space each frame as you reassemble the broodnest? No shoving frames over to insert a frame as they would push against each other, crushing bees and queens?

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    No, we're not converting them to spacer-less (non-Hoffman) style frames, just trimming 1/16" of each spacer so they sit closer together, 1 1/4" on center rather than 1 3/8".

    By the way, Mann Lake plastic frames can be trimmed without having to worry about the topbar. I've done about 120 of them now.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,169

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Woodworking is my arena. It appears to me that many beekeepers have a table saw and some basic tools but not any real developed skill. The earlier post about getting a variable space with the cut down frames is a great example. Like drawing a picture getting good quality control is a practiced skill to some degree. Proper methods are the other ingredient.
    You don't try to draw a perfectly straight line without an edge or ruler. You don't do precision woodworking without them either. I started to write an explanation but it simply is not going to work. to many details. I will see what I can do this week end about doing something with photos.

    It may seem I am making a big deal about this but having spent years on woodworking forums I have simply sen far to many really grizzly photos of injuries from people trying to do far simpler things than this.

    In short tiny work better done with tiny blades. Router bits are a much smaller blade than a table saw blade. Other than that think along the lines of how to guide and control the wood as well as keep as much of the cutting blade covered as possible. You can't get cut by a blade your fingers cannot reach. You cannot get hit by a piece of wood that cannot be thrown at you.

    Finally never stand in the line of a cutting blade. I know people that have had surgery to remove parts of their project form the crotch. Bits of nail are one thing. try a 6 inch long splinter of wood that decided to split off a top bar.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    >So tell me...with shaved down end bars...the frames become non-self spacing.

    No. They are hoffman frames that are spaced 1 1/4" by the end bars.

    > Does that mean everytime you inspect the broodnest you must finger space each frame as you reassemble the broodnest?

    Never.

    > No shoving frames over to insert a frame as they would push against each other, crushing bees and queens?

    No, they are up against each other. No more chance of crushing a queen or bees than with any hoffman spacers, which is to say, of course, they could get pinched between the end bars no matter if they are spaced 1 3/8" or 1 1/4".
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    1,995

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    ...Finally never stand in the line of a cutting blade. I know people that have had surgery to remove parts of their project form the crotch. Bits of nail are one thing. try a 6 inch long splinter of wood that decided to split off a top bar.
    Interesting. Most people will tell you to operate a table saw directly in line with the blade... You stand off to one side?

    Adam

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,612

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    No, they are up against each other. No more chance of crushing a queen or bees than with any hoffman spacers,
    Well, not exactly. Actually there is about twice the chance of crushing bees since the end bars are touching together twice as much material.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,228

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I cut my endbars so they are self spacing i.e. have the bottom 2/3 cut down to form a bee space between adjacent frames. This is standard Hoffman design. Therefore, they handle the same as 1 3/8 frames with the single exception that if the bees work cells over into drone size, then you can have a problem removing individual frames. This is why I avoid strains that tend to want 1/3 of the brood nest as drone comb.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    >there is about twice the chance of crushing bees since the end bars are touching together twice as much material.

    No, they are not touching on twice as much material. They might be touching for an extra 1/8" because of the taper going slightly further, but there is still the gap at the bottom as there always was. You are only taking 1/16" off each side of a 1 3/8" end bar. Or in metric terms (which are actually easier since they are all in the same units) you are going from 35mm to 32mm taking 1.5mm off each side of the end bar. This still leaves spacing on the end bars, still leaves a taper at the bottom (which leaves a gap) and they are still self spacing.
    Last edited by Michael Bush; 11-19-2011 at 03:39 AM. Reason: typo
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    DarJones, what cell size foundation do you use?
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 11-18-2011 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Added 'cell'.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,612

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I misunderstood, I thought they were not the Hoffman style, but full width end bars. My mistake.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,228

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I switched over to small cell about 5 years ago. Before that I used regular foundation from Kelley.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,228

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I don't normally resurrect old threads, but I am getting quite a few messages so here is a good thread to read.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
    Posts
    951

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Since the original start of this thread I have converted all of my brood boxes to narrow frames. I have kept the supers to ten frames. And the parallel slatted racks are also at ten frame spacing. If the narrow frame hives have made a difference or not I am not sure. I have however been successful in overwintering hives a couple of years straight now. I have not experienced a problem with the frames self spacing, crushing bees nor the bees not being able to get around into all parts of the hive without trimming the top bars. I have not experienced a bunch of burr comb either. I did try using an electric uncapping knife to reduce the depth of the cells when planing the side bars but this kind of made a mess of the comb because they were empty and gave way to crushing and breakage. The bees fixed them up just fine though. I did have problems with the narrow end bars I purchased on line as I posted in another thread. I ended up having to buy a second set of full width frame ends and micro plane them. I am planning on keeping with the narrow frame set up and am actually going to try a tower hive thei spring. Thanks for bringing it up again Fusion
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

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