Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 62
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
    Posts
    940

    Default 11 frames for broodnest

    I have seen a couple of posts regarding using eleven 1-1/4" frames in a ten frame box. I've read up on it some too and it sounds like a technique that I would like to try.
    Now, I currently have two hives running two standard ten frames deep brood boxes and I also have a spare ten frame deep with five or six spare frames. I could convert the spare box to eleven frames.
    I have a couple of the Brushy Mountain triangle bee escapes available for use.
    What would be a good approach to swap over to eleven frame boxes?
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Grantsburg,WI
    Posts
    115

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    You have a situation were you need to avoid disrupting the order of the frames,save the comb and brood etc. (as little as possible,without starting over)

    I would fashion some sort of jig to hold a single frame of bees with bees attached and use a pocket plane to remove a bit of the end bar from both sides. (that should prove to be an interesting process, but do-able?)
    I have shaved frames to make 13 fit in a jumbo brood box, without bees attached however..LOL
    Guessing you should only need to remove about the same amount of material.
    Just a thought...?

    Merry Christmas,

    BM
    Last edited by brushmouth; 12-25-2010 at 10:44 PM.
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JOHN F. KENNEDY -

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bunker Hill, IL
    Posts
    493

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    you could also start with new brood frames. shave them down and replace one every few weeks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warrior, Alabama
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Do it with new frames!
    Don't try running a frame of bees through your table saw to trim it down. It can be done.
    But you can also shoot yourself in the foot. Doable but not advised.
    Old Guy in Alabama

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,378

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I would do it with new frames or with frames that have been uncapped down to the wood so they don't protrude too far. Bees will build them slightly less deep and the honey won't have room to stick out as far with 11 frames.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,181

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    What is the reason for doing this? I don't understand something, I'm sure. I forsee trouble getting frames out w/out breakage.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,910

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Ten percent more brood within the same cluster during early build up.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,181

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Does it really work? If so, Why don't people build 12 frame equipment anymore? Just asking.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,910

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    If it works it isn't because there are more frames in the box it would be because the frames are narrower they take up less volume within the cluster. I don't know if it works or not. But it kind of makes sense.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL, USA
    Posts
    2,297

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    If your goal is more brood area why not just add another brood box on top like folks have been doing for about a century and a half?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,910

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Because more brood nest area isnt the point. The cluster is only a half of a cubic foot or so in volume. It can only hold X number of brood of any given size. By making the brood smaller the same cluster holds more brood. Or so the theory goes.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,252

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    I've never done this so I don't know for sure. But, why would there be more brood in a box just because there is an extra comb? Once the bees have more combs than they need, ie
    three story hives, they maintain a certain amount of brood and it doesn't matter how many frames they have. IMO, It's more about genetics than the configuration of the hive.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bunker Hill, IL
    Posts
    493

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    theres also the idea that by makeing the bee space smaller you can cover the brood with just one layer of bees instead of 2. which means you can cover more brood with less nurse bees.

    again has to do with the total amount of brood you can raise (in the spring) within a given area with a given number of surviving (winter) bees

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Shoshone County, Idaho
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Ever think about trying top bar hives for the extra frame space?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
    Posts
    940

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    This is the most recent post that I was following;
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...light=trimming
    My question is regarding the mechanics of introducing the 11-frame brood box.
    I can use the bee escapes to move the bees out or maybe it would be better to do like a reversal and use the queen excluder, wait for the brood to hatch and then trim the frames.
    Would it be better to just start swapping in the frames when I do my checkerboarding. Then it seems that I would get a bunch of bridge and burr comb throughout the interim.
    I guess I could also wait until the bees are in one deep brood box and remove the unused one and trim the frames. But then do I run the risk of messing up their winter stores?
    Whew, kind of rambling here
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    4,081

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    On the other side of the coin. Earlier in the year one of the bee magazines had an article stating that,
    "8 frame hives build up faster than 10 frame hives in the spring." more bees
    Dan

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,378

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Besides getting smaller cells the main reason is the bees can cover more brood with less sapce between and less brood with more space between.

    "...if the space is insufficient, the bees shorten the cells on the side of one comb, thus rendering that side useless; and if placed more than the usual width, it requires a greater amount of bees to cover the brood, as also to raise the temperature to the proper degree for building comb, Second, when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular--the application of the knife is then the only remedy to reduce them to proper thickness."--J.S. Harbison, The bee-keeper's directory pg 32

    Other historic references to narrow spacing:

    "...are placed the usual distance, so that the frames are 1 9/20 inch from centre to centre; but if it is desired to prevent the production of drone brood, the ends of every other frame are slipped back as shown at B, and the distance of 1 1/4 inch from centre to centre may be maintained."--T.W. Cowan, British bee-keeper's Guide Book pg 44
    "On measuring the combs in a hive that were regularly made, I found the following result, viz; five worker-combs occupied a space of five and a half inches, the space between each being three-eights of an inch, and allowing for the same width on each outer side, equals six and a quarter inches, as the proper diameter of a box in which five worker-combs could be build...The diameter of worker-combs averaged four-fifths of an inch; and that of drone-combs, one and one-eight of an inch."--T.B. Miner, The American bee keeper's manual, pg 325
    If you take off the extra 3/8" on the last one this is 5 7/8" for five combs divided by five is 1.175" or 1 3/16" on center for each comb.

    "Frame.--As before mentioned, each stock hive has ten of these frames, each 13 inches long by 7 1/4 inches high, with a 5/8 inch projection either back or front. The width both of the bar and frame is 7/8 of an inch; this is less by 1/4 of an inch than the bar recommended by the older apiarians. Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. Then too, in the same space that eight old fashioned bars occupied the narrower frames admit of an additional bar, so that, by using these, increased accommodation is afforded for breeding and storing of honey."-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture...
    "I have found it to be just that conclusion in theory that experiment proves a fact in practice, viz: with frames 7/8 of an inch wide, spaced just a bee-space apart, the bees will fill all the cells from top to bottom with brood, provided deeper cells or wider spacing, is used in the storage chamber. This is not guess-work or theory. In experiments covering a term of years. I have found the same results, without variation, in every instance. Such being the fact, what follows? In answer, I will say that the brood is invariably reared in the brood-chamber -- the surplus is stored, and at once, where it should be, and no brace-combs are built; and not only this, but the rearing of drones is kept well in hand, excess of swarming is easily prevented, and, in fact, the whole matter of bee-keeping work is reduced to a minimum, all that is required being to start with sheets of comb just 7/8 of an inch thick, and so spaced that they cannot be built any deeper. I trust that I have made myself understood; I know that if the plan indicated is followed, beekeeping will not only be found an easier pursuit, but speedy progress will be made from now on."--"Which are Better, the Wide or Narrow Frames?" by J.E. Pond, American Bee Journal: Volume 26, Number 9 March 1, 1890 No. 9. Page 141
    Note: 7/8" plus 3/8" (max beespace) makes 1 1/4".
    7/8" plus 1/4" (min beespace) makes 1 1/8".

    "But those who have given special attention to the matter, trying both spacing, agree almost uniformly that the right distance is 1 3/8, or, if anything, a trifle scant, and some use quite successfully 1 1/4 inch spacing." --ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by Ernest Rob Root Copyright 1917, Pg 669
    "With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber."
    "If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Knox County, Ohio
    Posts
    2,694

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    It's easiest to trim frames before the comb is drawn, and ideally before you build the frame. Sometimes top bars are wider than an inch, and you can trim the top bar to 1 inch wide if you haven't put the frame together yet.

    However, I have trimmed frames with drawn comb. I scrape the wax and propolis off the end bars. I set the fence of my table saw to 1 5/16. I stand the frame on end and trim one side of each end bar. Then I set my fence to 1 1/4 and trim the other side of each end bar.

    If the comb is wired and held with a nail in the side of the end bar, do NOT trim that side of the end bar. When the table saw cuts through the nail, the saw throws the nail fragments into your belly and it hurts. Don't ask me how I know. If you have a nail in the side of the end bar, just trim that end of the frame to 1 5/16.

    I would NOT attempt to trim a frame that has bees, brood, or honey in it. Wait until a frame is empty. After you extract, deadout frames, or spare frames are the frames to be trimming. It's ok to have a mix of narrow and standard width frames in a box while you are converting the box over to narrow frames.

    I would NOT try to use a hand planer to trim end bars. It's difficult to maintain consistency. After seeing my narrow frames, my dad tried trimming some of his frames with a power hand planer. He ended up with frames as wide as the top bar.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,197

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    There have been several articles published over the years advocating variants of the standard measurements of a frame. The January 1995 Bee Culture article titled Bee Space discussed using narrow gauge frames and referenced an article in the January 1977 issue. I first subscribed to Gleanings in Bee Culture in 1977. The article by Charles Koover plus financial restrictions inspired me to manufacture equipment, including narrow gauge frames. I went through three frame designs before I settled on the correct modifications. I have approximately 20 hive bodies using the narrow frames and have used them for 32 years. I also have used standard frames extensively for comparison. Here are my conclusions regarding narrow gauge frames.

    Narrow gauge frames tend to bow and warp more easily during construction. This is because all the measurements for frame joints have to be reduced. The frame must be carefully cut to precise dimensions and assembled to hang straight and free. I glue and nail all frames to achieve this goal.

    A comb which is even slightly bowed is unacceptable. The frames must be wired to obtain perfectly straight combs. Combs built in unwired frames will result in one side being deep and the other shallow. The bees will only raise brood in the deep side. Pins and other methods do not support the foundation adequately to prevent this bowing. Plastic core foundations tend to bow too much over time though some of the newer heavy base might work.

    Drone cells cannot be permitted because they will usually be at the frame's top or bottom edge. When a comb is removed from the hive body, bees will be crushed potentially killing the queen and causing excessive stinging because of the alarm pheromone released by the crushed bees. I renew the combs after about 5 years of use by cutting out the old comb and putting in new foundation. I use slatted rack bottom boards to reduce comb chewing and removal in the critical areas of the frame. The result is solid worker cell size combs which are easy to handle.

    Narrow gauge frames with 11 frames per super for honey production are useless because uncapping is almost impossible. I use and prefer 9 frames in a honey super. The narrow gauge frames can be spaced to give this density. The advantage obtained with nine narrow gauge frames in a super is that uncapping is easier because there are almost no low spots in the comb surface.

    The structure of the winter cluster is different on narrow guage frames. There is room for only two layers of bees between the combs as compared with three layers in standard frames. A winter cluster on narrow frames is therefore slightly larger for a given number of bees than in standard frames. This is expecially important in the early spring when brood rearing begins because the cluster covers more comb surface. This allows brood rearing to expand earlier.

    Eleven narrow frames full of honey weigh less than ten standard frames full because of the bee space around the 11th frame. The combination of expanded winter cluster and lower hive body weight will result in a colony that starves out in the early spring unless two or more hive bodies are used for wintering. This provides cluster crossover space and enough honey for successful wintering.

    Spring buildup with narrow gauge frames is only slightly improved in my area because of weather conditions. The first pollen from willow is in mid February. The main flow starts about April 20th and peaks from the first to the twentieth of May. This means I have 9 weeks for spring buildup from the first incoming pollen to the start of the main nectar flow. With such a long buildup period, swarming is a significant problem whether using narrow or standard frames

    The primary advantage under these conditions is that two deep hive bodies can contain the brood of the most prolific queen. I have had up to 18 frames of brood, larvae, and eggs from an exceptional queen. The two outside frames in the hive body were full of pollen and honey and all 9 inner frames were at least 70 percent full of brood. With standard frames, this amount of brood would partially occupy 3 hive bodies, but with narrow gauge frames, only two hive bodies are required.

    One significant advantage is that when made to the correct dimensions, bridge and brace comb is almost nonexistent. Please note that some bee strains are excessive at building bridge and brace comb. The narrow gauge frames will reduce, but not eliminate this tendency in these strains.

    Would I recommend a wholesale change to narrow gauge frames? No, but only because bees on them are less forgiving of human errors. They have slight advantages over standard frames in daily operation.

    The standard hive body with standard frames has been proven in over 100 years of beekeeping. The only impetus that would cause us to change the size hive and frame we use today would be a dramatic change in the way we keep bees. Examples of such dramatic changes could be found in the operations of migratory beekeepers using pallet systems. They could use a square hive more effectively than the rectangular ones we use today. Also, if queens are bred to be more prolific with resultant higher honey production, the standard hive body and frame will show serious limitations.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,252

    Default Re: 11 frames for broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I have approximately 20 hive bodies using the narrow frames and have used them for 32 years. DarJones
    Great post on the subject. Thank you.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads