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## Re: Trimming Frames

"The leaf or book hive consists of twelve vertical frames... and their breadth fifteen lines (one line= 1/12 of an inch. 15 lines = 1 1/4"). It is necessary that this last measure should be accurate." François Huber 1806

...are placed the usual distance, so that the frames are 1 9/20 inch from centre to centre; but if it is desired to prevent the production of drone brood, the ends of every other frame are slipped back as shown at B, and the distance of 1 1/4 inch from centre to centre may be maintained."--T.W. Cowan, British bee-keeper's Guide Book pg 44

"On measuring the combs in a hive that were regularly made, I found the following result, viz; five worker-combs occupied a space of five and a half inches, the space between each being three-eights of an inch, and allowing for the same width on each outer side, equals six and a quarter inches, as the proper diameter of a box in which five worker-combs could be build...The diameter of worker-combs averaged four-fifths of an inch; and that of drone-combs, one and one-eight of an inch."--T.B. Miner, The American bee keeper's manual, pg 325

If you take off the extra 3/8" on the last one this is 5 7/8" for five combs divided by five is 1.175" or 1 3/16" on center for each comb.

"Frame.--As before mentioned, each stock hive has ten of these frames, each 13 inches long by 7 1/4 inches high, with a 5/8 inch projection either back or front. The width both of the bar and frame is 7/8 of an inch; this is less by 1/4 of an inch than the bar recommended by the older apiarians. Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. Then too, in the same space that eight old fashioned bars occupied the narrower frames admit of an additional bar, so that, by using these, increased accommodation is afforded for breeding and storing of honey."-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture...

"I have found it to be just that conclusion in theory that experiment proves a fact in practice, viz: with frames 7/8 of an inch wide, spaced just a bee-space apart, the bees will fill all the cells from top to bottom with brood, provided deeper cells or wider spacing, is used in the storage chamber. This is not guess-work or theory. In experiments covering a term of years. I have found the same results, without variation, in every instance. Such being the fact, what follows? In answer, I will say that the brood is invariably reared in the brood-chamber -- the surplus is stored, and at once, where it should be, and no brace-combs are built; and not only this, but the rearing of drones is kept well in hand, excess of swarming is easily prevented, and, in fact, the whole matter of bee-keeping work is reduced to a minimum, all that is required being to start with sheets of comb just 7/8 of an inch thick, and so spaced that they cannot be built any deeper. I trust that I have made myself understood; I know that if the plan indicated is followed, beekeeping will not only be found an easier pursuit, but speedy progress will be made from now on."--"Which are Better, the Wide or Narrow Frames?" by J.E. Pond, American Bee Journal: Volume 26, Number 9 March 1, 1890 No. 9. Page 141

Note: 7/8" plus 3/8" (max beespace) makes 1 1/4".
7/8" plus 1/4" (min beespace) makes 1 1/8".

"But those who have given special attention to the matter, trying both spacing, agree almost uniformly that the right distance is 1 3/8, or, if anything, a trifle scant, and some use quite successfully 1 1/4 inch spacing." --ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by Ernest Rob Root Copyright 1917, Pg 669

"With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber."

"If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column.

"...if the space is insufficient, the bees shorten the cells on the side of one comb, thus rendering that side useless; and if placed more than the usual width, it requires a greater amount of bees to cover the brood, as also to raise the temperature to the proper degree for building comb, Second, when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular--the application of the knife is then the only remedy to reduce them to proper thickness."--J.S. Harbison, The bee-keeper's directory pg 32

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## Re: Trimming Frames

So, David and Beecurious could you please give a quick detail of your process for switching an active hive to eleven frame brood boxes?

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## Re: Trimming Frames

Originally Posted by ccar2000
So, David and Beecurious could you please give a quick detail of your process for switching an active hive to eleven frame brood boxes?
It won't be quick...

You just need to swapout frames when you can. In the Spring I plan to trim frames when I reverse boxes if possible. I'm not obsessed with having every box/hive completely filled with 1.25" frames... but in time, it will be that way.
Last edited by BeeCurious; 12-26-2010 at 11:44 AM. Reason: typo

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## Re: Trimming Frames

Thanks BeeCurious
I was thinking along those lines but am concerned with build up of burr and bridge comb in the excess space during the interim.
Would it be best to keep the frames pushed up against one side of the hive box? That way it would be easier to scrape the unwanted comb from the side of the box and the last frame to be swapped?
I started another thread concerning this topic

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## Re: Trimming Frames

I made LC and SC side by side comparison hives, the SC having 1 1/4" spacing. It was the first to die out, and the one of the two that has not produced surplus honey. It has died out twice to the LC's once. See my thread on Gargantua hives.

Not that I promote any gain by trimming down frames, but if I were to do it....I would have a router table or table saw set up properly for the right depth cut. Find the queen on a warm day, blow, brush or shake the bees into an empty container, run the sidebars through the trimmer of choice, reassemble the hive, replace the bees. A helper or two on hand and proper water, rags etc. to cope with honey mess, and it shouldn't take that long.
In my neighbor hood the hives die out in two or three years which gives great opportunity for this kind of project and comb renewal.

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## Re: Trimming Frames

I was thinking along those lines but am concerned with build up of burr and bridge comb in the excess space during the interim.

What excess space? The space between the walls of the box and the outer most frames?

That space is a non-issue, and the least of your worries. Some commercial beekeepers run 9 standard frames pushed together, centered in the box. That makes it easier for them to pull frames in a hurry.

Would it be best to keep the frames pushed up against one side of the hive box?

No, keep them centered in the box. If you push them to one side, the bees may build a free hanging comb in the space on the other side.

That way it would be easier to scrape the unwanted comb from the side of the box and the last frame to be swapped?

If you're that worried about the bees building burr comb there, put frames of foundation as your outer frames. The bees will normally draw those combs before they start burring up the walls of the hive.