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  1. #261
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    A few years ago, a Harvard psychologist named Drew Westen studied brains and brain-wave behavior associated with political thoughts, opinions and arguments. In "The Political Brain", he described the not-so-surprising results: people don't engage the rational parts of their brains when involved in political arguments, but emotional parts. Shown identical data, partisans would torture logic to support their pre-ordained positions rather than change their minds. This discussion is no different. Scientific data are being tossed about to bear on what are essentially questions of policy (politics). No one on either side is likely to be persuaded by facts. It's just not our nature. All minds are made up, not to be confused by the facts.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-24-2010 at 08:17 PM. Reason: personal attack

  2. #262
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    The gist of my post was that none of us can claim impartiality in this sort of discussion. I know I can't. I know my biases.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-24-2010 at 08:19 PM.

  3. #263
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Pilgarlic:

    You misunderstand. It's not political. It's a traditional, cultural, form of scholarly discourse.

    It's how we both gain new insights (and new references).

    It's like a card game.

  4. #264
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    WLC: I understand, and familiar with, and am accustomed to scholarly discourse. Fundamental to scholarly discourse is a dispassionate, rigorous search for truth. C'mon... this thread can only pretend to such noble ends.

  5. #265
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    HVH, here's a nice one:

    Lyko F, Foret S, Kucharski R, Wolf S, Falckenhayn C, et al. (2010) The Honey Bee Epigenomes: Differential Methylation of Brain DNA in Queens and Workers. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000506. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000506


    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/f...esentation=PDF

    I have'nt found any references with regards to CCD, neonics, and DNA methylation.

    I have bench space in a genomics lab. My interest is integrated virus fragments in the Honeybee genome.
    Interesting. I would not at all be surprised if the spliceosome possessed differential recognition based on CpG methylation. In my humble opinion there will be no end to the rabbit hole. We have come a long way since those in Darwin's era considered the cytoplasm to be an amorphous protoplasm, but like the atom, its constituent parts get ever smaller. The information content is staggering with all explanations left wanting in the balance.
    I still don't think methylation studies would prove helpful unless you had a very specific target gene identified that was linked to neonics. Its like running a DNA array - the data is only as good as the depth of the supporting publications and pathways. There is no doubt in my mind that neonic exposed bees would show some epigenetic changes but like I said so would syrup treated bees. You would have to target a highly characterized pathway strongly linked to neonics and still be in the impossible position of having to rule everything else out (background noise). This is a very difficult task even with highly studied subjects like fruit flies, mouse, man, yeast, E coli and Arabidopsis. Honeybee biology is still in the dark ages with an almost complete lack of cell culture techniques and with very little understanding of their immune or any other system. To make matters even worse, it is possible that a combination of pathogens are at work in the gut and interfering with nutritive uptake. That would be like studying epigenetics of people that get E coli 0157:H7 infections.
    If I had that access, I think looking for IIV fragments from collapsed colonies might be interesting. I don't know much about IIV but any genomic remnants would be interesting. I'm not 100% sure about the IIV connection anyhow because the variability in peptide sequence seems strange. I still need to read the primary source before having any opinion at all but any viral etiology seems like a worthy pursuit.

  6. #266
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    That's it. Personal attacks have no place in intelligent discussion. Carry on gentleman.
    I for one have found your input very valuable and tend to agree with your assessment which I think is an endorsement to wait and see.

  7. #267
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Nice polite kind of brinkmanship going on here,but bottom line line is these pesticides wipe out bee's, and many other forms of wildlife...by the time most , wake up and realize whats going on here, it will be to late....not scientist,and not an idiot either.

    How about a few of you scientific guys, comming down to ground level,and talking to the beekeepers,perhaps us ordinary guy's, who work our bee's every day know more than you lot do.
    Last edited by beekuk; 12-25-2010 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #268
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgarlic56 View Post
    In "The Political Brain", he described the not-so-surprising results: people don't engage the rational parts of their brains when involved in political arguments, but emotional parts. Shown identical data, partisans would torture logic to support their pre-ordained positions rather than change their minds.
    The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #269
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by beekuk View Post
    Nice polite kind of brinkmanship going on here,but bottom line line is these pesticides wipe out bee's, and many other forms of wildlife...by the time most , wake up and realize whats going on here, it will be to late....not scientist,and not an idiot either.

    How about a few of you scientific guys, comming down to ground level,and talking to the beekeepers,perhaps us ordinary guy's, who work our bee's every day know more than you lot do.
    I don't remember anyone suggesting that neonics don't kill bees. I personally think we as humans are stupid when we release all these toxins into our environment, heck I don't even like filling up landfills with plastic. I would even go further and say that GMO's have some risks but none of this has to do with having empirical evidence to indicate causality regarding neonics/CCD. If you google Koch's postulates I think you would understand the kind of evidence that some of us are awaiting.
    I agree that this is not the right forum for too much technical jargon but a few posts don't really hurt anyone either. You can just skip over the offending text and avoid the apparent condescension. Beesource has a diverse membership with people far more knowledgeable than I will ever be on a host of subjects. I see this as a great place to learn.

  10. #270
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    beekuk:

    If you followed the neonic ban in Italy story, you would see how an organization of beekeepers got help from scientists and government agencies to institute a successful policy change. That was a genuine grassroots effort.

    Now if you are wondering about the DNA methylation references..

    if neonics can be shown to cause those kinds of changes, then they would be considered hazardous to humans. That's why organophosphates were replaced by neonics. Organophosphates were shown to cause changes in DNA methylation.

    However, there is mounting evidence for off-target effects from neonics. Like killing pollinators.

  11. #271
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Pesticide kills the Immune system ? . There by allowing The Honey Bee To Die From something ELSE ... ? It Takes far less Pesticide to cause the Immune system to fail ? ! There by little trace . WHY?.... Do we use Pesticide's ? Are The Bugs GONE ? "The Goal" HOW does it work with VERY limited trace's ???

    http://www.monitor.net/monitor/3-10-...ideimmune.html


    I'am not a scientist!

  12. #272
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    HVH thank you for help in this,and the link to Koch's postulates,all helps to better understand what the scientists are trying to find.
    Also thank you WLC...for the DNA methylation references part of your post.
    And.....>However, there is mounting evidence for off-target effects from neonics. Like killing pollinators.<
    And from what i read and hear, not only polinators,but any creature living in the soil for up to two years,and remaining viable for up to 19 years,with run off into water courses ect....which is having an effect on the food chain for insect eating birds, and even fish ect.
    Slightly different note...have you seen this....links.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9312256.stm


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth...00/9306572.stm

  13. #273
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    beekuk:

    If you followed the neonic ban in Italy story, you would see how an organization of beekeepers got help from scientists and government agencies to institute a successful policy change. That was a genuine grassroots effort.

    Now if you are wondering about the DNA methylation references..

    if neonics can be shown to cause those kinds of changes, then they would be considered hazardous to humans. That's why organophosphates were replaced by neonics. Organophosphates were shown to cause changes in DNA methylation.

    However, there is mounting evidence for off-target effects from neonics. Like killing pollinators.
    I suppose that if one found gross epigenetic changes above a certain threshold then you might be correct. Any form of hypomethylation or hypermethylation could indicate a problem but it still would not prove causality regarding CCD. I suppose that kind of proof would be moot if you were able to ban neonics outright. On pragmatic grounds, however, we need to be a little more forward thinking and ask ourselves what would be the consequences of banning neonics - what would take their place?
    If your goal is sustainable agriculture don't hold your breath. Asking farmers to not treat is like asking a beekeeper to not treat. There are people on this forum that don't treat (mainly hobby beekeepers that can afford more risks) but they are rolling dice that could be disastrous to someone making a living off a crop.
    I would love to see all these chemicals banned and a return to wormy corn, but at this point in history, we have to try and choose the lesser of two evils. And a lot of people that want sustainable agriculture need to vote with their wallets and purchase local foods that are grown in such a manner as to get your approval. If someone posts on this thread how sick and tired they are of all these chemicals in our environment they would be hypocritical to purchase the cheapest produce they can to save money. If you really want to change the way we do things get involved in the local-grown-movement and convince as many people as you can of your philosophy and get them involved as well. The free market has already had some success with CSA's, Farmer's markets, and locally grown foods in places like Whole Foods. There really does seem to be a shift and the best way to promote it is on the consumption side. Farmers need to have a market for less than perfect produce if they are to wean themselves off all those agrichemicals.

  14. #274
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    What would take the place of neonic coated maize seeds?

    The Italians addressed that issue by ROTATING CROPS w/ success.

    HVH:

    IPM practitioners apply treatments only when they are needed.

    Planting crops w/ neonic coated seeds raises the question:
    'If there is no pest present, why are you using a pesticide treatment as a standard practice? What about non-target species like pollinators?'

    The logic continues: 'So your standard practice is to put native pollinators at risk, regardless of the disease status of your crop?'

    Of course, someone will say that farms will fail, the economy will collapse, etc. . However, the Italians have shown that they can do well without neonics. IPM has worked for the Italians.

  15. #275
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    This is a corporate country run by money and with diversionary science to help.

    http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacg...cmte=C00281162

  16. #276
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    What amazes me is that some think that a potently hazardous product should have to be proven hazardous before its taken of the shelf and not proven safe before its put on the shelf.

    The fact is we dont know how safe or unsafe this stuff really is. We dont know how far reaching its effects may be or how long the threats may last after use. But yet some will defend Bayer till blue in the face. People are convicted in court of crimes without absolute proof every day. They are convicted because things add up and we know to a certain degree they did it. If you needed the absolute proof to the degree some argue in bayers defense before a product is removed you will never get them removed because you can almost always argue a possible alternative cause or reason. Corn can be grown without neonics and there is no threat of farmers losing their industry if they dont have it tomorrow. So why should we not require pesticides need to be proven safe by competent long term studies to evaluate the short and long term effects of their use. If there is an epidemic infestation of insects which will wipe out crops if a certain pesticide is not granted use then I can see them being given a pass for use while studies are being completed. No epidemic infestation is present that Im aware of so there is not reason at moment pesticides cant be properly evaluated to insure they are safe for use.

  17. #277
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Any reason you cant just make corn pollen patties and feed to test colonies to see what the effects are? Would that not prove or dis prove negative effects of bees gathering pollen from corn plant grown from coated seeds? Has this been done?

  18. #278
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quoted from http://www.beyondpesticides.org/poll...hianidin-1.pdf

    "The issue here is not whether one can attribute one pesticide as the cause of colony collapse disorder (CCD). That claim has not been made by anyone. The critical issue is that we know that this is a highly toxic pesticide to bees and, given the EPA’s inability to identify the cause(s) of CCD, it must not and does not have the legal authority to allow a pesticide to be used without “required” data that enables the agency to answer this critical question relating to the health of honeybees"

    Well said I think!

    Can anyone tell me who applys the Clothianidin to the seeds before they are planted? Is it applyed by the seed manufacture? Is their any oversight to guarantee it was applied correctly? If not how do we know the "rare application errs" are rare?

    From EPA
    "Application using hopper-box, slurry-box, or similar seed treatment applications used at planting is prohibited.In addition, the proposed label specifically prohibits on-farm seed treatment, which would likely usethe least efficient equipment and result in higher exposures per lb ai handled"


    What does the EPA have to hide?

    http://www.celsias.com/article/epa-k...lent-colony-c/

    "Now, with U.S. honeybee deaths climbing to more than 36 percent year-over-year (and some die-offs in Texas exceeding 70 percent), the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), a U.S. non-profit environmental advocacy group, has filed a suit against the EPA. The suit demands the release of documentation the EPA used to approve Bayer's clothianidin submission five years ago.

    In its conditional 2003 approval to Bayer, the EPA asked for additional studies on the effects of clothianidin on the complete life cycle of the honeybee, including peripheral effects on a queen bee's ability to reproduce. No one knows if the studies were actually performed, or if they met EPA - and scientific - standards for completeness and accuracy.

    NRDC's first request for this information, filed under the Freedom of Information Act (which requires a response within 20 business days), was ignored. The EPA did, however, issue a self-serving press release which purports to deal with the issue.

    NRDC then filed the aforementioned lawsuit (dated Monday, August 18). The EPA, which says it has not seen the lawsuit, has declined to comment on the legal action as well. For its part, the NRDC continues to believe that the EPA does, in fact, have evidence from these studies which would show the connection between neonicotinoid pesticides and honeybee deaths, and charges that the EPA has, willfully or simply negligently, failed to make it public.

    "Pesticide restrictions might be at the heart of the solution to this growing crisis, so why hide the information they should be using to make those decisions?" NRDC attorney Aaron Colangelo asks."

    Yeah, Yeah, with that title Im sure many wont even give any credit to the article. I dont care who wrote it, what the title is, I am concerned with the facts given in the body of it.

    All this said if the EPA is not going to do their job and protect the public then we need to put presure on out own states to require tighter restrictions and regulations on studies before pesticieds gain useage rights and to garantee proper application to seeds.

    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/regulating/

    "EPA and the states (usually that state's agriculture office) register or license pesticides for use in the United States. EPA receives its authority to register pesticides under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA). States are authorized to regulate pesticides under FIFRA and under state pesticide laws. States may place more restrictive requirements on pesticides than EPA. Pesticides must be registered both by EPA and the state before distribution."
    Last edited by WI-beek; 12-27-2010 at 02:26 AM.

  19. #279

  20. #280
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    "Colorado bee-farmer Tom Theobald has a superb 5 minute video up on Youtube - made by a professional film maker in the USA."

    Beekeeper Leaks EPA Document - YouTube

    Source: http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/bee_news.html

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