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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I find the study to be understandable. So, read it yourself....
    ok, i see. he is comparing queens mated with one drone to queens mated with 2 drones of different colonies...he did not compare either of these to a queen mated with 2 drones from the _same_ colony.

    i think you misstated dave's study...you said:
    Mating with one drone, or multiple drones of the same genetics equates to a 50/50 chance of inheriting chalkbrood resistance.
    ...the study you pointed to doesn't give any mention of "multiple drones of the same genetics".

    i think that if there were 2 different drone sources, each with 50% of the drones carrying CR, that it wouldn't matter if a queen mated with one drone from each colony, or with 2 drones from the same hive.

    ...also, wrt Dave's paper....
    I chose 24 colonies
    as the male (drone) sources, all of which were unrelated
    to the maternal source and to each other. I obtained sexually
    mature drones by capturing them at their hive entrances as they
    returned from unsuccessful mating flights.
    ??? how did he know a drone was on a mating flight?
    ??? how did he know the drone was returning to the hive in which he was born?
    ??? given the above, how did he know they were unrelated to each other?

    deknow
    Last edited by deknow; 12-09-2010 at 10:02 PM. Reason: added last part

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by Countryboy View Post
    How hard is it to inbreed bees if someone wanted to? Does it actually happen very often, or is talk of inbreeding bees just more fear mongering with little actual basis?
    it's not hard...but (as i've said in other threads), the first symptoms of inbreeding aren't subtle (spotty brood pattern due to haploid drones being removed), and even if the beekeeper misdiagnosed the cause of the spotty brood, requeening is likely at least part of what the beekeeper would do (and unless one is requeening with inbred stock, inbreeding problem solved).

    deknow

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Are Minnesota Hygienic hybrid vigor or natural? The genetics are well documented.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    MH stock was developed from the old Starline bee.The Starline was a cross between several lines. First two inbred lines were crossed producing daughter queens. Two separate inbred lines were crossed to produce daughters. The two daughter groups were crossed to form the Starline bee. Hybrids I would say.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    MH stock was developed from the old Starline bee.The Starline was a cross between several lines. First two inbred lines were crossed producing daughter queens. Two separate inbred lines were crossed to produce daughters. The two daughter groups were crossed to form the Starline bee. Hybrids I would say.
    Or maybe just genetically mutts with predictability.
    So much to learn, so little time!!

  6. #26
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    One sperm + One egg Does = one bee... And I think it would create a little clarity to further explain that there are two forms of hybrids in the bee industry...

    1. Hybrid Queens - Offspring of queens that were mated with separate breeds.

    2. Hybrid Colonies - (diversity through breeds, not merely family lines or "blood"). A colony made up of several different strains of bees... due to the queen being mated with drones of several different breeds.

    There are also two different forms of hybrid production (other than II) in this discussion that I think may be confusing some...

    1. Breed hybrids (mixed breeds)- Ie.. russian/italian, carniolan/amm, and so on... and keep in mind that the mix does not stop at two breeds... it can continue as far as your means can..

    2. Developemental hybrids (mixed lineages of the same breed)- Ie.. Carniolans from NZ/Slovenia/Ukraine bred openly and the selectively bred again and again to develop stock with the most desirable traits..


    A good example of this would be the VSH model that was earlier mentioned by MP (I think)...

    The result of an Italian queen from a lineage that has never been exposed to VD, mated with 16 drones of like colonies and one drone from a colony that had been exposed to VD for 16 years and was showing good VSH behavior, would be a 50/50 chance that the eggs that the queen uses his sperm to fertilized would produce VSH bees... The bees that are created by his sperm would account for somewhere around 3.352% of the colony at any given time... Thus if half of his offspring carried his VSH trait, the VSH bees within the colony would make up around 1.676% of its total numbers...

    The more VSH drones you add, the more rapidly the % rises... If the queen herself were created with even 1 VSH drone, then the % would be much higher as well...

    This example is dealing with one base breed however, there are literally thousands of conclusions that can be created, but only a few hundred have a notable difference...

    Hybrids are extremely useful in many applications, yet there is a great need for base genetics as well...

    We maintain base stock of many lines... We also create hybrids via II and open mating practices...

    The thing to remember is that each blend will change with each generation... allowing natural requeening will create new mixes every time when using hybrids... and eventually, the majority will rule and the yard will once again become the base strain... Most people look at this in reverse, thinking that the more they continue to mix freely, the deeper the mix will become... but in actuality all mixes are breeding back to the prime breed in the area.. thus the mix has to be maintained in order to continue the traits that were bred for in the beginning...

    The genetic depth of any stock is simply in the numbers... Queens of different lineages are everywhere. Inbreeding stock will give you only so long before you realise that you need new queens AND drones... here we use the term mostly to refer to breeding within the same species, not lineage... Sure all bees originated from one mating pair at some point in time, but over 100 million years is a bit excessive to worry about...

    We order queens and/or sperm from different parts of the world to maintain genetic diversity WITHIN each breed... THEN we mix the breeds... Its also important to note that each breed has been selectively bred and tested for all aspects of desirable traits, BEFORE any particular hives are chosen to use in the creation of our hybrids...

    Yes, creating and maintaining any true hybrid line takes a very very large number of hives... but requeening is always an option that works well for smaller operations... And although I strongly suggest that everyone with 50+ hives should at least TRY queen rearing, if for nothing more than their own knowledge, I will say that you should be careful when grafting from hybrid hives... The next generation may be the exact oposite of what you want, and I have heard many horror stories about people requeening ALL of their hives after grafting from a Hybrid colony...

    To anyone wishing to get a better understanding of this, I suggest you get one AMM queen, and one Cordovan. Place both hives in isolated areas and keep them from swarming... Set up a few nucs and graft from each hive, then plant the cells in the opposite yards to mate with the opposite color... If you have II you could use all yellow drones but one... or the other way around... and II is much more acurate and much faster, but you will get the idea quite well in the open yard as well. Color is a great indicator that you can easily see what amount each drone (and each father of the queen) can effect the hive as a whole.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by rrussell6870; 12-14-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Thanks for this post. I'm having trouble understanding how breeding works.

    [QUOTE=rrussell6870;601432] and one drone from a colony that had been exposed to VD for 16 years and was showing good VSH behavior, would be a 50/50 chance that the eggs that the queen uses his sperm to fertilized would produce VSH bees... The bees that are created by his sperm would account for somewhere around 3.352% of the colony at any given time...

    Why is there a 50/50 chance of an egg fertilized by sperm from a VSH drone being VSH? It looks to me like it would be 100%.

    Also, I didn't follow the math for 3.352%. 100/17=5.88


    ... and eventually, the majority will rule and the yard will once again become the base strain... Most people look at this in reverse, thinking that the more they continue to mix freely, the deeper the mix will become... but in actuality all mixes are breeding back to the prime breed in the area.. thus the mix has to be maintained in order to continue the traits that were bred for in the beginning...

    Could you explain this more why this is true?

    Thanks

  8. #28
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by heaflaw View Post
    Why is there a 50/50 chance of an egg fertilized by sperm from a VSH drone being VSH? It looks to me like it would be 100%.

    Also, I didn't follow the math for 3.352%. 100/17=5.88
    VSH is a trait, not ALL traits are going to show in every offspring...

    Two people with blue eyes have a child with brown eyes... the grandfather's brown eyes came through for one reason or another...

    Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that... Drones eggs are not fertilized by a fathers sperm, thus they are mirrors of the queens genetics only... This means that for him to carry a VSH trait, the queen that created him has to carry that trait, and this cycle must go back all the way to the point that the trait was created due to the stress from VD...

    So VSH traits from a drone that came from a hive that is showing VSH behavior does not HAVE to reflect in his offspring... and in fact is not very likely as the queens genetics passed through the egg are only around 43% of the total genetics that will make up the offspring... Its a good average to say around 50% because of that factor... Queen=43% Drone=57%

    I think that may answer the second part of your question as well...

    You have to take the queens 43% in account as well... Her traits will show in almost half of the cases...

    The calculation I used is simply only counting the genetics of the drones... the 57%

    57/17= 3.352 then take in account the 50/50 variable
    3.352/2= 1.676

    Sorry, I could have been more clear that I was calculating drone influence...

    You had one more question, but I didnt get a chance to copy it in the top...

    "... and eventually, the majority will rule and the yard will once again become the base strain... Most people look at this in reverse, thinking that the more they continue to mix freely, the deeper the mix will become... but in actuality all mixes are breeding back to the prime breed in the area.. thus the mix has to be maintained in order to continue the traits that were bred for in the beginning..."

    "Could you explain this more why this is true?"

    Look at the genetic make up of a bee as a set of numbers... (just lost the 72% of the population that hates math! lol)

    If each breed within that queens genetic history was represented by a number (amount actually present in her genome), one breed would have a higher number... Even if she is base Italian and all 17 drones were russian, the russian genetics would be higher in her offspring (and thus in the next queen).. The same is true for every drone in the yard, so as each hive requeens itself and each virgin mates with drones from the area, that number changes each time (for the queen, AS WELL AS the drones that she produces)... which ever breed ends up with the highest number each time will continue to gain a higher number each time until the other breeds have completely been bred out...

    Hope I didnt give you a head ache... lol. If I didn't explain it well enough, I would be happy to try again tomorrow. It has gotten late here, so I am not so great at clarity at the moment.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    I have practiced genetics in chickens, turkeys and pigeons. Genetics are a lot of fun. There are very simple rules of inheritance, but there are lots of little things like dominance, condominance, incomplete dominance and recessiveness that sort of tinker with the results of your crosses.

    From reading some of the questions being asked and the answers it is becoming very clear that the people asking questions will not always understand the answers untill they learn the basics.

    For example, humans have basically 3 eye colors (with many modifiers), but basically 3 colors. Brown, Green and Blue. If a person inherits one copy of brown genes from dad and blue genes from mom, then he will show brown color 100% of the time. So he has 50% of genes, but does not show one brown and one blue eye, because brown is dominant over blue. It is dominant over green too, but not completely, so you'll sort of get some brownish mixture. Now, if the person gets one blue from mom and one blue from dad, the chidren will only have blue eyes. Because blue is a recessive. In order for a recessive gene to come trhough, then both parents have to carry recessive gene. And yes, in humans in appears that every once in a while, two blue eyed parents will have brown colored kid. First reason is obvious (fidelity to the partner). But second reason is that there are color intensifiers in human genes, so what appears to be brown is actually an extremely intensive blue color, not brown.

    I do not think that things like dominance, and genotypes and phenotypes are explained very well in this thread, therefore I suggest that people who are not familiar with genetics read up on it on wikipedia or like sites. It will make all of the answers here so much more clear, you won't regret it. I just looked in wikipedia under genetic and PUnnet square and there is quite a bit of good information available.

    Just to clarify something for my self, what are considered dominant and recessive genes in bees. Is there a website that lists them?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by AramF View Post
    Just to clarify something for my self, what are considered dominant and recessive genes in bees. Is there a website that lists them?
    Here's a little info at Glenn Apiaries:
    http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/geneti...duction_1.html

    -John McNeil
    Last edited by bot; 12-15-2010 at 11:15 AM. Reason: wrong link

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    rrussell6870,

    Could you please explain the statement below? I am not familiar with these percentages.

    Thanks,
    Joe

    "You have to take the queens 43% in account as well... Her traits will show in almost half of the cases...

    The calculation I used is simply only counting the genetics of the drones... the 57%"
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
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  12. #32
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Sure Joe,

    These are simply base percentages that we use for quick calculations. Using SNPS from the genome of a queen and comparing with SNPS from the genome of her offspring we noted that around 43% of the SNPS were directly passed from the queen... leaving about 57% from the drone.


    Hope this helps!

    PS... I have been meaning to ask you... Do you offer your Instruments in large orders? We were considering purchasing about 35 of them for a class.
    PM me if you will..

    Thanks!
    Last edited by rrussell6870; 12-15-2010 at 04:53 PM. Reason: PS

  13. #33
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by AramF View Post
    And yes, in humans in appears that every once in a while, two blue eyed parents will have brown colored kid. First reason is obvious (fidelity to the partner). But second reason is that there are color intensifiers in human genes, so what appears to be brown is actually an extremely intensive blue color, not brown.
    Wonder how many husbands are looking at their wife and kids a little bit sideways tonight? lol. There is a bit more to it, but you get the idea... in bees (as with humans), you can take it a few steps further by including the grandparents, great grands and so on...

    This would be SO much easier to explain if I had an online chalkboard.

    Again, a great way to get a hands-on understanding of the effects of breeding hybrids would be to take a Cordovan queen and a AMM queen, separate them into isolated areas and then graft from each and breed the virgins in the opposite areas, so that the Cordovan Queens will be mated by AMM (Black) drones and the AMM queens will be mated with Cordovan drones... The effects are easy to see, and as you continue to graft and breed future gens, you can easily see a deeper range of effects.

    I would also suggest at least attempting II.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Thanks, but I am still uncertain of the percentages. The good old standard is 50/50 with some suggestion of maternal and paternal influence. It is my understanding that SNPs provide markers, but are not indicative of complete gene activity.

    Greg Hunt, from Purdue, recently presented some exciting genetic based work to demonstrate there is evidence to suggest imprinting, in his case a greater influence from the paternal side, for defensive behavior. I am working from memory as his work is not published yet, but I believe it was only 1 or 2 percent greater influence from the male contribution for the defensive behavior.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
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  15. #35
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Its possible, again this is from one queen and one offspring... certainly greater percentage from the male though. This could be different in with each specie, as well as each subject..

    These numbers have been used in quick calculations, and seem fairly accurate thus far... a little more, little less is always possible... after all, nature has more control than we do.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that...

    Could you explain that? Do sperm cells from 17 different drones all unite with one single egg to create a queen? That sounds a little far fetched to me.

    It is my understanding that one sperm from one drone unites with one egg to create a queen. Regardless of how many drones the queen mother mated with, only one sperm from one drone fertilizes the egg. The genetics from all other drones the queen mother mated with are not passed on to the daughter queen. The hive may possess other genetic traits through workers, which inherited the traits from drone fathers, until those workers die of old age and the new daughter queen's offspring replace them. (However, those traits may still appear if the daughter queen mated with drones that had that trait, even if the new queen does not possess the trait in her genetics, making it more difficult to tell if the trait is in the hive through drone fathers of workers or if the queen carries the trait.)

    Greg Hunt, from Purdue, recently presented some exciting genetic based work to demonstrate there is evidence to suggest imprinting, in his case a greater influence from the paternal side, for defensive behavior. I am working from memory as his work is not published yet, but I believe it was only 1 or 2 percent greater influence from the male contribution for the defensive behavior.

    From what I understand:
    Africanized queen mated with Africanized drone - mega defensive/vicious
    Africanized queen mated with European drone - hot, but not quite as vicious
    European queen mated with Africanized drone - mildest of AHB genetic lines, but still pretty dang mean

    If drone genetics carry more weight concerning defensive behavior, I would expect a European queen mated to an AHB drone to be more defensive than an Africanized queen mated to a European drone - but that's the opposite of what I understand.

    Or does the hybridization of crossing the AHB and Euro lines affect this beyond the paternal influence?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Lets not forget the occasional mutation

  18. #38
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    Quote Originally Posted by Countryboy View Post
    Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that...

    Could you explain that? Do sperm cells from 17 different drones all unite with one single egg to create a queen? That sounds a little far fetched to me.
    Countryboy,

    We were discussing "Honey Bee" genetics, not the genetics of one queen - then her daughter... The great complexity comes from looking at the colony as a whole unit made up of genetics of different mixtures... The amount of each mixture into the colony as a whole can greatly determine the actions and or main notable "characteristics" of the Colony, as opposed to one bee...

    During the time that a hive is made up of "lets just say" 17 different types of bees... from 17 different fathers, and most were a hybrid of different nature, yet all were of different strains....then the hive requeens and again "lets just say" the virgin mates with 17 different drones each from different strains... for some period of time, there will be 34 different hyrid strains within the one colony... this is a form of the complexity that we were discussing... how would a single trait be calculated within this colony?.... it wouldn't, at least not be me. lol. I will just say that nature wins... everytime... lol.

    Both of my parents had blue eyes, both of my wifes have blue eyes, my grandfather on my fathers side had brown eyes, as did my wifes grandmother... I have Blue eyes... my wife has brown... what color eyes do our children have??? My oldest has brown, and both others have blue... nature makes its way... in school the prof hated situations like this... he would just throw up his hands and say "NEW MODEL"... refusing to admit that genetic science has no "true rules", but in reality this world breaks our rules everyday... ANYTHING is possible, the key is not to find the definates, it's to find the probabilities...

    On your second question about the AHB drone/Italian Queen... Again, I will note that our conclusion was from one queen and one offspring... Although the calculation proves quite effective in determining outcomes of hybrid colonies. It is still possible that different breeds or even different subjects could change the conclusion. I have not had misfortune of working with any AHB colonies here, so I couldnt tell you whether queen or drone passes along more.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by rrussell6870; 12-15-2010 at 09:46 PM. Reason: more added

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    To those of you who know 20 times more about bee genetics than us hobbyists will ever know:

    If we have 10 (or 20 or 30) successful hives, should we be bringing in outside genetics after x number of years?

  20. #40
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    Re: Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor

    I feel that it is important, but I am a breeder, so my operation requires it... with careful placement and good record keeping as well as good management practices, you could get away without it... but its best to start out with stock from different lineages and keep a good accounting of what is what so that you don't run into trouble. A few well placed mated queens from a different stock can keep things mixed up if you are grafting your own queens for splits.

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