Queen breeding

[waynesgarden]

I have a friend here in Vermont who raises Russian stock. .... Raising, tearing down...until they swarm....Russians don't make it here. Don't tell my friend that.

I bought two hives of Russians from another friend of your friend mid-September. Both hives (three 8 frame mediums) were booming with bees, though the seller warned me the bottom boxes was nearly empty and suggested I put some feed on them when i got them home.

Easy. Put a little syrup on them and gave them a week or so to adjust to their new surroundings. One of the colonies sucked down the syrup, brought in pollen and some late nectar, filled the bottom boxes solid and swarmed in late September. The resulting late swarm queen never got mated and I combined a nuc with a Carni queen to save the hive.

Caught the other hive in time and will split that colony into some top bar hives next spring. I'll have those hives at home where I can baby them just for fun but as I expand the colonies in a new yard next spring, I don't expect to have enough time to spend babying bees so prone to swarming. I'll raise Carni queens for those. (I won't tell your friend.)

Wayne

[RiodeLobo]

Has anyone had success with Russian crosses? I know of some queen breeders(Olympic Wilderness Apiary) that have open mated Russian lines (crossed with survival feral lines) and was considering re-queening a split or two with them. I live in a somewhat colder climate with a few weeks sub 0 F and a growing season of about 90-120 days.

[valleyman]

There are several in my area and on beesource that have the hybrid as they are called. I assume that is what you are talking about. What they are is pure Russian queens open mated. Hardemanns apiaries in Ga. has them. What I understand about them is they have their Russian operation in another county from their other genetics. which would make them fairly pure Russians. They just don't belong to the RBA. And don't test for purity. Walter T Kelley sells the packages in my area. Most like them.

[adamf]

Adam,
I am confused as to what you are attempting to say... It appears that you
think that I have said that I manipulate dna of something... selection is
the process of breeding... studying the data from the dna is quite simply
a method of determining what lineages are present through the
arrangement.

Hi Robert, I simply responded to what you wrote. You wrote as though you were
"verifying DNA" which nobody does much of in any animal breeding
program yet. You state again above that the "data from the DNA is quite simply
a method..."

That's somewhat misleading. The data in breeding outcomes or results
of crosses if you will, is the studying of each unique variation
in the animal's DNA sequence. The DNA in one bee cross is the exact same
chemical compound as the DNA in another bee cross, or in a lizard, rat or
human. DNA is DNA. How the DNA is arranged and what the resulting
cellular and sub-cellular products result from this arrangement make
up the breeding unit's set of traits. If my description is "textbook";
perhaps that's a negative if one has something against textbooks, yet
that's how heredity works, and most importantly, it is accurate.
Breeding has so many moving parts that working from a sound factual base
will add to the chances of success.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[Broke-T]

The USDA bee lab at Baton Rouge has a DNA test they are using to verify the purity of the Russian Bee lines they turned over to the Russian Bee Breeders Association. I don't know of any private breeders who check their drone DNA to see if they contain the genetics they want. Not sure its even possible.

The spermitheca test he was talking about is done on queens to see if they are mated properly. Not on drones.

Johnny

[adamf]

The USDA bee lab at Baton Rouge has a DNA test they are using to verify the purity of the Russian Bee lines they turned over to the Russian Bee Breeders Association.

Hi Johnny,

I'm sure they're using a test for a specific SEQUENCE of interest from the
DNA. The DNA in the Russian Bees they're testing for purity is the same DNA in your cells and mine. DNA is DNA.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[Broke-T]

I have had classes in molecular biology, they are using gel electrophorisis to look at patterns of sequences. But for the average person, when we talk about DNA, it refers to the genetic makeup of an organism, which is the sequence of the base pair.

Johnny

[Beeslave]

[adamf]

I have had classes in molecular biology, they are using gel electrophorisis to look at patterns of sequences. But for the average person, when we talk about DNA, it refers to the genetic makeup of an organism, which is the sequence of the base pair. Johnny

Hi Johny,

I'm trying to remove some of the mystery and confusion with the basic terminology.

Simply, when one is dealing with heredity and breeding (the topic of this thread)
one needs to be aware that the sequence of the genome (the order of base pairs
in the DNA of the organism of interest) is what is significant in the eventual expression of traits.
Stating that as a queen breeder, one is "verifying DNA",
is somewhat misleading.

As you said, unless one was using molecular techniques such as electrophorisis or other combinations of techniques,
coupled with bioinformatics etc. etc: Then "verifying DNA" would be appropriate.

Selection in breeding programs can occur without any "verification of DNA" and be extremely successfull.
Anyone with a good eye for details and good record keeping skills can do it.
Before we knew about DNA, we were pretty darn good animal breeders.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[rrussell6870]

Adam,

Not sure where your opposition to our efforts comes from, maybe it is because I spoke out against the USDA's plans to begin releasing pure russian swarms in an attempt to breed them into all of our stock... when you got upset about my concerns about the matter, you spoke highly of ARS, but didn't mention the reason of concern in the first place... now that statement has been removed, so I can not quote it...
but in any case... (and we are certainly getting off-topic here)..

I did not make notation as to HOW we conduct our studies for several reasons...
1. I was quite sure that most everyone here were already fully aware that variations in the sequence are what we are studying... If I took this for granted, then I apologize... and I apologize for saying that your statements were "textbook", I merely meant that I assumed that everyone knew these things already... the entire honey bee genome was sequenced over 5 years ago... we use simple variations in DNA called SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) markers. A SNP marker (snip) can tell you a lot about which bee is related to which bee. But...again, we are getting off course. When you first asked what I am calling "dna verification", I stated.. "We study the dna of each production of drones.. These studies are to of course "verify" the origin, but also to test for genetic mutations in order to maintain a vital stock... There is such a thing as "Over Bred"... its important to keep re-insert native (or base) strains into ANY hybrid situation... After all those genetics are "What makes a bee, a bee".

2. Our research is privately funded and thus the data is reserved for commercial use and I do not have the time nor desire to teach basic biology after using terms that would have to be explained... ie..if I had said... Total DNA was extracted from two sets of 10 drone A. Mellifera, collected
from Study Colony 372, (frame 119), (queen #0301993712), Russell Research Institute, MS, USA, in July, 2009. Drones were ground in 200 ul lysis-digestion solution (0.1M NaCl, 0.2M sucrose, 0.1M Tris–HCl (pH 9.1), 0.05% SDS and 2 ug/ul pronase) and incubated at 50◦C for 1 h with occasional vortexing. Proteins were precipitated using wet ice and KAc (final conc. 1.5M) for 30min, then the DNA-containing aqueous phase was isolated by centrifugation and DNA was precipitated using a final concentration of 70% ethanol and an overnight incubation at −20◦C followed by centrifugation. The resulting pellet was washed twice with 70% ethanol, then suspended in distilled H2O and diluted to a concentration of approximately 10 ng/ul.

...I think most here would have been rather unhappy with my lengthy explanation of a process that was not even of interest in the first place...

No hard feelings man, I think we just got our wires crossed.

[valleyman]

Mr. Russell
One of my favorite mottos in life has been if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bs.
In my estimation we have just been dazzled with brilliance. I for one thank you for taking the time to educate us with you vast knowledge. I realize that a small amount of your statements are just opinions, albeit opinions that have arisen from a set of facts that you have derived from research and/or conversing with others that have an experience in certain areas. IE. Russian bee keepers, meaning the nation of Russia.
I don't think that you are the least bit off fopic as my original post was Queen breeding, and it definetly involves dna whether it be as some one stated by selecting the breeding stock by sight or as I did for several years in the seedstock cattle business using bloodlines/genetics/dns. They all go hand in hand

[TWall]

Mr. Russell
... I for one thank you for taking the time to educate us with you vast knowledge...

I second that!

Tom

[rrussell6870]

Thank you both for the kind words... Just trying to help.

[HVH]

Adam,


2. Our research is privately funded and thus the data is reserved for commercial use and I do not have the time nor desire to teach basic biology after using terms that would have to be explained... ie..if I had said... Total DNA was extracted from two sets of 10 drone A. Mellifera, collected
from Study Colony 372, (frame 119), (queen #0301993712), Russell Research Institute, MS, USA, in July, 2009. Drones were ground in 200 ul lysis-digestion solution (0.1M NaCl, 0.2M sucrose, 0.1M Tris–HCl (pH 9.1), 0.05% SDS and 2 ug/ul pronase) and incubated at 50◦C for 1 h with occasional vortexing. Proteins were precipitated using wet ice and KAc (final conc. 1.5M) for 30min, then the DNA-containing aqueous phase was isolated by centrifugation and DNA was precipitated using a final concentration of 70% ethanol and an overnight incubation at −20◦C followed by centrifugation. The resulting pellet was washed twice with 70% ethanol, then suspended in distilled H2O and diluted to a concentration of approximately 10 ng/ul.

...I think most here would have been rather unhappy with my lengthy explanation of a process that was not even of interest in the first place...

No hard feelings man, I think we just got our wires crossed.

Actually, I like DNA talk.
p.s. Have you ever tried skipping the DNA extraction by simply adding sperm directly to the PCR reaction? I have found this to work on everything from bacteria to mammalian cells. I have not had a need to do SNP's so your PCR conditions may be more or less amenable.

[Bsupplier]

Valleyman & Slick,
We will have two different genetic lines of Russian Hybrids again this year. One with California origins, and the other out of Georgia. In addition I will be breeding openly mated queens from these base stocks in Mississippi in March. I will be taking about 30 hives south in the next few weeks and I will be working with Kent Williams. The majority of hives being moved are Russian Hybrids but also some VSH and Minnesotas. I hope to have some queens available from this operation this summer in addition to nuc's.

[slickbrightspear]

let me know when you have them I may be able to use some .

[scdw43]

It is possible to keep them pure by requeening with breeders and managing closely to keep on top of swarming... this will be much more cost effective than II, however, it will be much more costly than letting nature take its course... Again, the 1st gen of russian hybrids are very unsavory, as the gen continue, they ease up some... Another issue that you will run into is that russians are... "good honey producers"... Sound like a good thing??? Not so much... All bees produce honey... These girls will store it so much that they will pack it into your brood chambers causing the queens to run out of space to lay eggs and have to find a more suitable home...

This is their natural behavior as they have adapted to living in very cold climates with a very short time period to store up between winters...

When you use them in much less harsh climates, the queens have a longer laying period, yet the foragers do not adjust their storing behavior to mach her laying needs... thus you end up with swarm after swarm after swarm...

This will give you a bunch of honey, but it will leave you with weak hives (as you continue to loose bulks of bees with each swarm, and have the month long "downtime" between each laying queen in a hive that already had less brood than it should have.. this is the reason that they are considered to be so easy to winter... less brood means less food needed over winter, excess honey means more food for the brood... but your genetics will be hard to maintain and you will find yourself "managing" space more than you would with any other breeds.

All of you russian keepers out there, please hold your hate mail... I am not saying that they are not good bees, in fact I have used some of their genetics to produce a few lines of queens such as our Tigers and Moonbeams... And as most of you know, we have taught commercial bee keeping to many russian bee keepers for a government program to save their agricultural system... Great People! They are not as fond of their own bees as some americans are though. lol.

Above is the answer, I don't think I can improve on it .