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  1. #41
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    In reply to some of what BillC has said in his post regarding commercial beekeepers I have to say it never ceases to amaze me the things that are posted here on beesource some times.

    I've heard it all
    commercial beekeepers use "massive amounts of chemicals"
    they "dont have time to look after their hives".
    they take all the honey and feed back sugar syrup.
    they dont take time to observe the bees.
    they shift them here and there.

    This is just some of the stuff I've read that comes to me off the top of my head.

    I want to know do you guys who write this stuff actually know any commercial beekeepers?
    and why is it that commercial beekeepers know nothing about bees or beekeeping but the guy with 2 hives in his backyard knows it all?

    frazz

  2. #42
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Regarding my statement about commercial beekeepers and the use of the word "massive"....What I was trying to badly say was that with hundreds maybe thousands of hives, commercial beeks need to use enough treatment related materials to treat as many hive as they tend. I really didnt think at the time I made an offensive statement that many have taken offense to, AND TO THOSE I OFFENDED, I APOLOGIZE.

    It also seemed to me that the original post was made by a backyarder or hobbiest and the person perhaps needed to also understand how to prevent further infestation by other methods that work for some of us. I appreciate all who responded, but please dont take my statement out of context too much here. I do understand that, as beekeepers, we all have to deal with and control all elements within every hive we have. Varroa is in just about every hive and the equalibrium that exsists within the hive can be maintained to the point where bees and pests can live in a somewhat harmonious way without going out of control. I certainly dont know everything and dont ever post that I do, I just posted what works for me and that was it. I have been working bees throughout my lifetime but I dont have hundreds of hives cause I live in the city. Again, keep words in context.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill C Beekeeper View Post
    I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!!
    And is this your solution to varroa control? Venting out "stale humid air"? Considering all the humid air bees vent from the hive when ripening honey, and considering how many eons they've been doing this, why now all of a sudden is a gabled cover with gable vents the solution to all those apiary pests?

    Have you watched bees vent their hive? Bees on one side of the bottom board entrance directing air flow into the hive and bees on the other side venting air out? And that air flow is directed up into the colony, and around, and back out the bottom. The bees really do have ventilation figured out, and will maintain the in hive humidity they need. Certainly thay don't allow "stale humid air" to fill the hive. After so much time practicing I remind you..."Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees".

  4. #44
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBee View Post
    Bill C Beekeeper was saying earlier in this thread, "... I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!!" *** Is there any way we can see a photo of your design? I know I'd love to see it!
    I would also love to see how they stack

  5. #45
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    By no means am I trying to "make" better bees. And to Michael's point, I am only using natural convection to "help" the bees and the hive interior stay cooler and drier. I have found that my hives here in Maryland tend to be very humid year round, and have seen the moisture build up on the inner cover as droplets that drip back down into the colony leading to additional problems. By using gabled covers, I have eliminated this issue entirely. I know the bees dont need me to refine their millions of years of evolving to their present point, but by using natural convection I believe that it helps to keep the interior of my hives drier, that is it. I wonder why then some folks tip the outer cover up on one end???

    As to controlling varroa, I use strains of bees that have a high resistance to varroa along with the before mentioned equipment and treating only when necessary, I have regressed all my hives down on small cell, and I havent had any issues or used treatments for 5 years.

    What works for me, may not work for you. Just thought I would throw my ideas out to anyone who wants to know, but I didnt know that you all out there would try and pound me into the dirt and prove how wrong I am... Teaches me not to post!!!!

  6. #46
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    No Worries Bill.

    What i've noticed since joining this forum is that commercial beekeepers are frequently portrayed as the devil. A gang bashing mentality has developed among some, mostly the least educated, and some of the drivel that's said is a bit hard to listen too, for me anyway.

    Then you made the "massive chemical" statement, and all them frustrated commercials came out of the closet!!

    And that's understandable i sometimes feel a strong urge to correct some of the falsehoods put around, but must bite my tongue because those with little knowledge and set opinions will only argue and degrade the thread.

    I think i know what you were REALLY trying to say though. Chin up, life goes on!

  7. #47
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Thanks, oldtimer, I am no expert and only wanted to throw ideas that work for me out there...I will keep my info to myself and read posts....HAPPY BEEKEEPING TO YOU ALL!!!

  8. #48
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    BillC,
    As Oldtimer said, for me it's just the continual bashing of commercial beekeepers that gets up my nose and your comment about using massive amounts of chemicals meant to me that commercials used excessive amounts of chemicals willy nilly with no thought to the bees or the products they harvest from their hives. Which is so far from the truth for all the commercial beekeepers that I know, bar one

    Maybe I need to take a breath like Oldtimer and just let it go,
    but I wasn't trying to bash you and I know that you will have lots of interesting post for me to read in the future.

    cheers
    frazz

  9. #49
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    Re: DWV? Need Advice

    You are certainly welcome to post and by all means please do. This is what makes forums so useful. Just try not to knock other operations because as you can see, most folks here bleed yellow, sweat wax, and sting too. I have troubles biting my tongue too. lol. I have learned that if you disagree, its best to simply ask if they have tried your way, and give a testament of how it worked for you.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    >>certainly commercial migratory beekeepers and large scale operations dont have the time and resources to check every hive every week, so that is why they use massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments for years.<<

    >> but I didnt know that you all out there would try and pound me into the dirt and prove how wrong I am... Teaches me not to post!!!!<<

    Bill, if you're going to point fingers, you need to be able to defend what you say. Some of us are tired of being at the point of the spear. Books out in the last few years on natural beekeeping, top bar hives, et al have claimed and have convinced the newbies and novices and part timers that the commercial beekeepers have ruined the deal for everyone, when we're all together in the same boat. I for one am giving everything I have in time and energy to maintain a healthy bee operation. Don't say "certainly" if you don't really know. I'm sorry you took offence at my comments, but read through the new literature and online resources. You'll understand where my frustration comes from.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    I want to know do you guys who write this stuff actually know any commercial beekeepers?
    Let's beware that you're pov and experience is coming from a different continent.

    There is no need for anyone to belittle or put down another's pov, and this thread is turning down that road.
    Regards, Barry

  12. #52
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    I'm sorry Barry but I'm not sure what's wrong with the quote you highlighted?
    Are you saying that what I said about knowing any commercial beekeepers was belittling and a put down?

    cheers
    frazz
    Last edited by frazzledfozzle; 11-20-2010 at 04:57 AM. Reason: rephrase

  13. #53
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    Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    BillC,
    As Oldtimer said, for me it's just the continual bashing of commercial beekeepers that gets up my nose and your comment about using massive amounts of chemicals meant to me that commercials used excessive amounts of chemicals willy nilly with no thought to the bees or the products they harvest from their hives. Which is so far from the truth for all the commercial beekeepers that I know, bar one

    Maybe I need to take a breath like Oldtimer and just let it go,
    but I wasn't trying to bash you and I know that you will have lots of interesting post for me to read in the future.

    cheers
    frazz
    I think you said it all in the above post frazz... very respectful and kind... Barry is a good guy, he probably just missed the later part of the thread.

    PS... Do you or Oldtimer know if NZ is allowed to ship to the US currently? I am in need of packages and some of your carniolan stock for an isolated production study...

  14. #54
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Books out in the last few years on natural beekeeping, top bar hives, et al have claimed and have convinced the newbies and novices and part timers that the commercial beekeepers have ruined the deal for everyone...
    Mike, I hope that I have not made you feel that way. There is a lot wrong with commercial beekeeping (especially migratory pollination practices), but I don't think your operation is on that list.

    I will say that I recently had a very large commercial beekeeper (someone who has a significant percentage of the colonies on the east coast) tell me to my face that his practices are not good for the bees (wrt to feeding, treating, splitting, transporting, etc). To a large extent, what is bad for bees is bad for beekeeping.

    deknow

  15. #55
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Mike, I hope that I have not made you feel that way.
    deknow
    No, because you don't make crazy blanked statements as the poster did. You have your ways, well posted, that you are actually following through with. Right or wrong, successful or not, you raise issues and propose alternatives. Others point fingers and form opinions because of something they read on the internet. Blasting away at anyone without understanding all the facts, and criticizing without offering an alternative is the wrong approach, in my opinion.

  16. #56
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    Re: DWV? Need Advice

    I think it is mainly just the mentality that all commercial operations are managed the same way. Very far from true. Everyone operates differently and those that do silly things like over-treating and treating without cause will NOT have bees for long, so why worry about it... There have been numberous companies that were "chaising the buck" by getting funding to buy thousands of colonies, then rushing them to the almonds... this may work for the first season, but very soon after, they begin to loose hundreds of colonies and do not know why... thats when they finally start to try to figure out what they are doing... And that is where you find commercial operations that are following ill-practices...They are just the "left-overs" of a poorly planned business that will no doubt be completely out of business very soon.

    As for REAL commercial operations... They start just like everyone else does... the reason that they grow to such large numbers is simply because they have a "nack" for it and through trial and error, good sense, and taking the time to do things right, they continue to grow until they become what they are today.

    If someone has a few million to blow and no knowledge of bees, they could very well start this type of operation... But if they have been around for a while and continue to grow... it is because they are simply GREAT beekeepers...

    We all get tired of being referred to as the "walmarts of the bee industry"...

  17. #57
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by rrussell6870 View Post
    We all get tired of being referred to as the "walmarts of the bee industry"...
    ...giving advice to use off label formulations (and doses of coumaphos that will kill mites for 2 years) to a hobbyist with one hive won't help that reputation one bit. (post #10)

    i'm amazed at what people will put in writing. sometimes we have a hard time convincing customers what goes into most beehives.

    i wouldn't eat honey from a hive that had enough coumaphos in it to kill mites for two years (and i don't care if the honey supers were not on at the time of treatment). who would? anyone?

    deknow
    Last edited by deknow; 11-20-2010 at 07:47 PM. Reason: corrected post number i was referring to

  18. #58
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    I'm sorry Barry but I'm not sure what's wrong with the quote you highlighted?
    There's nothing wrong with your quote. What's behind your post I take issue with. I see "commercial" beekeepers on this thread getting upset over comments made by a hobby beekeeper. I happen to think some of his comments were on target. It is BAD advice for rrussell to tell another to treat in an illegal manner. This kind of advice lends to the view that commercial beekeepers are lose and reckless with chemicals (which post #10 is evidence of).

    There is more than one way to keep bees and I think it does us all good to be clear where each other is coming from when advice is given. rrussell is coming from a breeder/commercial "old school" perspective. Michael Palmer is breeder/commercial as well, but approaches bees in a very different manner. I'm sure I'd never hear him give the advice rrussell gave.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #59
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    Re: DWV? Need Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...giving advice to use off label formulations (and doses of coumaphos that will kill mites for 2 years) to a hobbyist with one hive won't help that reputation one bit. (post #28)

    i'm amazed at what people will put in writing. sometimes we have a hard time convincing customers what goes into most beehives.

    i wouldn't eat honey from a hive that had enough coumaphos in it to kill mites for two years (and i don't care if the honey supers were not on at the time of treatment). who would? anyone?

    deknow
    Ok now that kind of response is exactly what we were referring to.. terribly mis-informed, twisted words, and purely opinion.

    1. "Off-Label" in this case, has undergone hundreds of thousands of dollars in testing for use in beehives and is far more effective and "better for the bees" in the fact that it kills all of the mites in one dose, instead of allowing them to build up immunities to it... lets think about all of the first released chems and what happened there... control of VD??? nope..Stronger VD. Some may be able to wait on better treatments to come around, but not everyone is at that advantage. Also there is LESS coumaphos in this treatment than there is in Checkmite+, so if you want to follow the label so badly, then you would have him use MORE chemicals than I would and for a longer period of time.

    2. Anyone who had actually researched this treatment would know full well that it is NOT the AMOUNT of coumaphos that is in the treatment that makes it so effective...it is the method of application. So saying that there is "SO MUCH COUMAPHOS" in the hive is preposterous. In fact there is LESS COUMAPHOS in this method than there is in Checkmite+...

    3. We do not sell honey anymore... I instructed him on how to protect his product as well... AND you do not have to eat honey from a hive that ONCE had chemicals in it... EVEN THOUGH it had FAR LESS chemicals in it than the hive that produced the honey that you WOULD eat... Not to mention the fact that the honey that you would NOT eat was produced in a super that was free of treatments and only placed on a treated hive After the treatment had dissipated.

    Here we go again... When will people wakeup and come to terms with the fact that large commercial operations are NOT owned by Bayer or any other drug company. We spend HUGE amounts of money, time, and effort to find the BEST METHODS for dealing with pests... and NOT just best for the beekeepers, but BEST FOR THE BEES.

    I would like to also add that we have not been in this fight for quite some time, and thus I referred the questioner to seek the advice of someone who would be more up-to-date on regulations... Most of the posters that seem to have so much trouble with the private labs seaking better treatments, do not realise that there were NO treatments that were "aproved" when the threat first arrived.
    Last edited by rrussell6870; 11-20-2010 at 08:33 PM. Reason: typos

  20. #60
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    Default Re: DWV? Need Advice

    ...i can play flame war with the best of them. in this instance, i see no need (i think it's a first), you have made my case better than i could possibly hope to.

    deknow

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