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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Just more interested in the facts than others...

    Doing a little Myth-busting


    Feeding acid-inverted syrup does not appear to be the key to proper feeding.


    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...5&postcount=18



    NDnewbeek,

    You are interested in dissecting the studies I have come across, but there doesn't seem to be a single one supporting the use of acid-inverted syrup.
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 10-11-2010 at 07:14 AM.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    NDnewbeek,

    You are interested in dissecting the studies I have come across, but there doesn't seem to be a single one supporting the use of acid-inverted syrup.
    That is because I have no interest in supporting the use of inverted syrup (or discouraging it necessarily). And there are problems with the studies that you have cited.

    If you are interested in the facts, as you claim, then you should be interested in other facts about the studies you cite - beyond just the conclusions. That is all I am presenting.

    You might be right about inverted sugar - I don't know. But yelling, throwing out a couple of (old) scientific articles and trying to force your opinion on people is a poor way to gain converts.

    Why not request a current review of the topic from the journals (ABJ and BeeCulture)? I think it would make for an interesting article, plus, many of their writers have the scientific background to evaluate the papers as well as the experience in beekeeping to do a thorough, accurate review.

  3. #23
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    Exclamation Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    I think this horse is dead. Let it RIP.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Seems like you only have to go as far as our friendly beesource community to find more data:

    http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...to-honey-bees/

    "Bailey also found that 8-year-old honey had dysenteric effects much like poisonous sugars: an absorption peak matching hydroxymethyl furfural correlated with toxicity of old honey and of acid-hydrolyzed syrups. "

    Seems that lots of research was done in the mid-70's

    Here's a more recent study:

    http://fotb.drogon.org/library/TBH_m...is_feeding.pdf

    The above doc points to a Taranov 1986 reference that is not listed in the References section. The pointer suggests:

    "Sugar syrup should be acidified with organic acids (citric, oxalic, acetic, lactic). The best wintering results were obtained when 0.3 g acetic acid was added per kilogram of sugar to the sugar syrup, prepeared (sic) for feeding of wintering bees. The fecula (sic) mass in spring bees was lower when they were fed on sugar syrup, acidified with acetic acid, compared to those, fed on non acidified sugar syrup (Taranov 1986)."

    Upon further research, Georgiĭ Filippovich Taranov appears to have been a very active Russian bee researcher. It may be of value to track down the above reference. A quick search doesn't provide much.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    What exactly is dead about this topic? Is it the manner in which it is being discussed, or is it the topic in general?


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think this horse is dead. Let it RIP.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    If feeding acid-inverted syrup was "the key to proper feeding" wouldn't its use be more universal?
    Convenience.
    If chicken soup prevents/cure colds and flu why is not feed in schools and why don't we have it at least 2/3 times a week?
    In Europe a lot of beeks use inverted fructose to feed the bees.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    What exactly is dead about this topic?
    The back and forth finger pointing. Doing that once is enough. Then it's time to put forth data to support/disclaim a position. It needs to move beyond where it was stuck in discussion or let it die. The personal snipping needs to stay out of it.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Since AstroBee contributed to the thread, I wanted to see if I understand this. I really don't mean to beat the dead horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    snip

    "Bailey also found that 8-year-old honey had dysenteric effects much like poisonous sugars: an absorption peak matching hydroxymethyl furfural correlated with toxicity of old honey and of acid-hydrolyzed syrups. "
    So, if I'm reading this correctly, Baily is saying that "acid-hydrolyzed syrups" (inverted syrup) is toxic, like "8-year old honey".


    "Sugar syrup should be acidified with organic acids (citric, oxalic, acetic, lactic). The best wintering results were obtained when 0.3 g acetic acid was added per kilogram of sugar to the sugar syrup, prepeared (sic) for feeding of wintering bees. The fecula (sic) mass in spring bees was lower when they were fed on sugar syrup, acidified with acetic acid, compared to those, fed on non acidified sugar syrup (Taranov 1986)."
    Now, this is where I wish a chemist would help out...

    To me adding an acid to syrup is not the same as inverting it. A number of members add vinegar to adjust pH, often after the syrup has cooled. It's my impression that that syrup will be more acid, but not inverted.

    Adding ascorbic acid to the hot water that one makes syrup with, in my opinion, would result in minimal inversion of sucrose, without adding heat beyond the point of clarifying the syrup. If my water, or syrup boils, it's entirely by mistake.

    There's a difference, I believe, between "acidifying" a syrup and the acid-inversion of a syrup.

    Most of Taranov's study involved invertase-inverted syrup.

    I'd like to know what happens to the pH of inverted syrup. For example, if I make a batch of syrup with 25# of sugar I would add approximately 3.5 grams of ascorbic acid to the water before adding the sugar. Now, normally, I don't boil the syrup. But if I did boil it for 20 minutes would the pH change through the conversion of the sucrose to fructose and glucose, to a less acid level? Since inverted syrup tastes sweet I would think that the that the pH would rise... but this is completely a guess on my part.
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 10-11-2010 at 04:57 PM. Reason: typo
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Everything you ever wanted to know about invert sugar.
    http://www.ensymm.com/pdf/ensymmProj...production.pdf

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    [QUOTE=camero7;588183]Everything you ever wanted to know about invert sugar.
    http://www.ensymm.com/pdf/ensymmProj...production.pdf

    We are looking for "Everything you ever wanted to know about acid-inverted syrup".

    I have two bottles of invertase in my fridge.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post

    To me adding an acid to syrup is not the same as inverting it. A number of members add vinegar to adjust pH, often after the syrup has cooled. It's my impression that that syrup will be more acid, but not inverted.

    I am certainly no expert in this subject, but interested to learn more. However, everything that I've read says that when using acid to invert sugar heat is required. Just adding acid to cool sugar water would like not result in inverted sugar.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    I don't have the time right now to read the links but completely inverted sugar has twice the osmotic pressure of the starting material. The higher osmotic pressure would make it more antiseptic. I hope the authors tested their syrups periodically to see if they had any microbial growth.
    As far as inverted sugar being sweeter -
    1) Inverted sugar has twice the concentration of sugar than the starting material.
    2) In addition to doubling the concentration of sugar, half of the resulting mixture is fructose, which is sweeter than sucrose.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Okay, I am now confused.

    Inverted SW occurs when heated?
    Inverted SW occurs when something acidic is added?
    Inverted SW occurs when heated and something acidic ensures/makes it more inverted?

    Give a guy with ADD a break. I have read a lot of info since this thread started via Google. But I still don't have a clue as to what it really takes to simply make some inverted SW.

    Today I heated up a lot of sugar in a pot with water. As the sugar dissolved or wouldn't dissolved I add some more water and continued the process. Stirring constantly. Once the SW started to come to a boil I pulled it off the heat and let it cool.

    For the heck of it, I added a couple splashes of RealLemon just before it started to boil.

    Do I have inverted SW? The SW looks like it always does when I do heat it up. It is clear with a light "yellowish" tint. The SW is much thinner now than it was before it got hot enough to boil.

    Last year I heated some SW so that I could increase the amount of sugar to water. Until this thread I had never heard of inverted SW (that I can remember). I have no idea if it was 2:1, 3:1, etc. Heck, I couldn't tell you what it is for the 1 and 1/2 5-gallon buckets of "heated SW with a splash of lemon" other than I know it's more than 1:1.
    De Colores,
    Ken

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    You can purchase some Benedict's reagent or make it from simple chemicals and test your SW for inversion.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict%27s_reagent
    A non-enzymatic inversion will be affected by pH, temperature and time. Complete inversion could be approximated by running a time course with Benedict's reagent.
    IMHO, simple is better so I prefer to feed sucrose and let the bees run the chemistry lab.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    HVH,

    Thanks for your input. I understand part of it...

    To satisfy my own curiosity, I'm going to make a small batch of syrup and see how the pH changes with inversion.

    I suspect that this whole inversion thing has such a marginal impact that there isn't much interest/upside to investigating it.

    I don't know if "invertase is invertase", but I wasn't sure I should be placing a feeder full of foreign enzymes on my hives. A lot of gas or electric can be saved if invertase is safe to use.


    I wonder how many beekeepers know the pH of their final syrup?

    .
    .

    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    The transformation of sucrose (table sugar) into invert sugar can be done in several ways: by very long boiling with water, boiling with acids, or with the use of enzymes.

    From the first sentence on page 3 in the doc from post 29.

    "Invert sugar is prepared by the hydrolysis of sucrose to glucose (dextrose) and fructose. This is achieved by subjecting a sucrose solution to acid and heat."

    Of course bees do it too, but with the addition of enzymes. There are commercially available enzymes.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Claims made concerning acid-inverted syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    HVH,

    Thanks for your input. I understand part of it...

    To satisfy my own curiosity, I'm going to make a small batch of syrup and see how the pH changes with inversion.

    I suspect that this whole inversion thing has such a marginal impact that there isn't much interest/upside to investigating it.

    I don't know if "invertase is invertase", but I wasn't sure I should be placing a feeder full of foreign enzymes on my hives. A lot of gas or electric can be saved if invertase is safe to use.


    I wonder how many beekeepers know the pH of their final syrup?

    .
    .

    I hate to make it more complicated but pH really has very little meaning with weak acids compared to titratable acidity. If you need an explanation you might try and study wine pH vs. titratable acidity. As for myself, I assume everything is way more complicated than first impressions and err on the side of simplicity.

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