Inter-Beekeeper drama!! Advice sought.

[mrspock]

Late spring, I got a call from a local beek who'd suffered a brain injury, and needed me to take his hive and all of his bee stuff. I also spoke to his brother, who confirmed that taking the hive would be the best thing for all concerned. I wasn't necessarily keen on the idea, but felt his need.

It was a bit of a hassle, but I picked up his hive, along with his beekeeping equipment. His practice is different than my own, and most of his equipment is not of use to me.

Lacking space, I put the hive in a neighbor's yard. It swarmed days later. I shared the extra/excess equipment with my neighbor, who decided he wanted to keep the swarm.

Fastforward to fall. I've not harvested any honey from the adopted and swarmed hive, but wanted to share some of my other honey with this fellow... Mostly a goodwill thing, because I knew both he and his wife were unwell, and he probably missed not having a honey harvest. Called him up to arrange a time.

He informed me that he'd had another brain injury over the summer, but that he was recovering well, and would want his hives back in the spring. He expressed that he hoped I'd enjoyed having the extra hive. (Gee, thanks).

Really, I want to wash my hands of this matter, but it's possible that he's even more fried, and still unable to keep bees. It's unclear.

I've drafted the following email. My wife says it is too harsh. Thoughts?

Hi P*****,

When I spoke to both you and your brother in the spring, it was made clear to me that you were unable to continue beekeeping, and wanted to find a home for your hive and equipment. There was urgency in your need, and I stepped up to help. I was surprised by tonight's request for your equipment and bees back.

I have sunk time and effort into taking on your hive, and am not pleased by this development. Nonetheless, I feel the only honorable path is to accommodate your request as best I am able. I would like to get your hive/equipment back to you as soon as possible, as I am unable to justify the effort that would be require to overwinter your hive. My hands are occupied with many matters, leaving little room for probono beesitting.

Given the cirumstances, however, I'd first like to again speak to your brother to confirm the feasibility of your request. Please have him give me a call at ***-****.

[NDnewbeek]

Your reply doesn't sound harsh to me at all. Given the circumstances, I would call it downright civil. I would also tell him where he can pick 'his' hive and equipment up at his convenience and would wash my hands of it all.

It is a difficult situation for you, but at this point, if it were me, I wouldn't invest any more time or money into it. If in his mind, they are his bees in the spring, then they are his bees now, and he can be responsible for ovewintering them. If he wanted me to get them through - we could make arrangements to get him started with a spring split or something. Otherwise, it has the feel of being taken advantage of - at least to me.

[rocky1]

Personally... I'd just tell him it swarmed and was lost. Help the neighbor out with finding a new beehive to house his swarm, and offer to give the old guy an empty beehive back, or maybe sell him a nuc in it in the spring. (o;?

If you have any bears in the area, tell him a bear ate it! Scrape the lid a time or two with a tater rake, and tell him that's all that's left!! (o:?


Life's too short to get too excited about it at this point. If he's in that bad a shape, he may not make it until spring. The bees may not make it either. No sense creating ill feelings at this point in time. Smile, appear to be happy, and make it work to your advantage come spring!

[Tara]

I think your request is fair. Overwintering bees is a valuable service. Either he should do it himself, or pay you for the hassle.

Besides that, I see 2 options:

1) Let him know that you were not made aware that the property transfer was a loan, and that you no longer have the actual equipment, but he can have his bees back (combs if you still have them).

2) Offer to pay him what you feel is a fair price for the bees and the equipment that is of use to you. Maybe inform your neighbor of the situation and see if he cares to pay a fair price for the equipment he's using, but only as a purely voluntary gesture.

Legally, I'm pretty sure you'd come out on top simply refusing. Someone giving away free kittens or puppies dosn't expect to hold any claim on them... free bees aren't any different. The suggestions above are more goodwill gestures.

Best of luck, whatever you do.

[Tara]

Also a reasonable question!

I wouldn't say "making the final arrangements".... that might give him the idea you're going along with his request.

I might just go with,

"The transfer of your bees started with a discussion with your brother. Can you please have him call me?"

[BigDaddyDS]

Seriously?

I'm going to fall on the other side of the fence on this one. It's ONE hive for an old guy with a brain injury. Overwinter them as best as you can. If they die, give him a split in the spring... IF he wants his bees back. Or, you could have him come "visit his bees" in the spring if he's not able to work them himself.

It's only drama if you cause it. And if you're a believer in karma, then you'll be rewarded for your kindness later. If you don't believe in karma, well, you'll get your reward immediately with the feeling of warmth and kindness when you return his bees to him in the springtime. Don't sweat it. It's only ONE hive, after all.

Happy beekeeping,
DS

[Doc5000]

I am going to take a different view. I do not think you have any obligation to further help the guy, but perhaps in the interest of helping out someone who had a fairly severe brain injury, you could just let his lack of consideration slide. If you send the letter, he will probably feel very bad, either feeling foolish and guilty, or angry because he thinks you are being unreasonable. Either would be a bad result.

Just assume that, in his mind, he came to you and asked for a favor and that you agreed to do it, even as far as overwintering the hive. That would be a nicer way to handle the situation. Again, I do not think you have any obligation to do as I suggested, but it would be kind and helpful to a man who has a lot of health problems.

Also, if someone lent me a hive for a year, I would think that was kind of cool. I keep bees because I enjoy it. I would think that was cool to have another hive for a while.

[EastSideBuzz]

Give him back his equip if you have it. Set him up with a Nuc if you have it or say sorry and let him buy a package. Life is too short to deal with stressful stuff.

[rocky1]

I'd simply inquire how the brother is doing, tell him you'd like to chat with him, and ask for his number. Leave the bees out of the discussion at this point. If he asks, simply tell him you want to drop him off a jar or two of honey as well.

Your options are...

1.) Refuse to return the hive and make an old man truly grumpy. At this point that may well not be in his best interest, and you're really going to feel bad if he kicks the bucket over being stressed out over his bees. And, then you're going to feel bad too.

2.) Give him his bees back and you be grumpy for having to get them back from the neighbor, take care of them all winter, buy feed for them, etc. etc.

3.) You and the neighbor build his bees up in the spring. Take a nuc out for you and your neighbor. Build another beehive for the neighbor that matches your equipment so you guys can share equipment when necessary and help each other out. Give him his bees and the odd equipment back. And, the next time he offers, tell him, "Sorry but I've been debating taking on another job, and I may have to get rid of my own bees! I really can't."

BigDaddyDS makes a valid point about the Karma thingy. But... I'm pretty sure you can still be rewarded with Karma and have a nuc or two for your trouble. The God's of Karma whomever they may be, probably wouldn't mind if you recovered your costs for tending the bees and feeding them all winter if you give him a healthy hive back.

[WI-beek]

How about this.

Sorry, colony became africanized, I burned it.

[WI-beek]

Or,

Sure, I can sell it to you, how does $450 sound, Ill deliver it for $100.00.

[Barry]

How about this.

That would be dishonest.

[WI-beek]

Barry, I was of course joking.

I think all of us have had to deal with someone who blows your mind away with this kind of behavior. It makes you wonder if they really think like that or if they are just testing you to see if they can get something for nothing out of shear greed and a complete lack of respect.

I honestly would call the brother and be completely upfront and honest about the issue. I would explain what had happened up to date and ask "what do you honestly expect me to do about it now".

I would offer the old timer a box, bottom, inner, telescope, (if I had them to spare) three frames of bees and tell the brother he needs to buy the queen and hes on his own from there cause thats all Id be prepared to do. I would also tell him that I honestly did not believe I had any responsibility or duty to satisfy the request and to be frank Im offended by it.

[Duboisi]

Mrspock: You wrote a nice and clear description in your post here. Why not just editing it a little and mail, or say about the same to the brother/beek?

I kinda agree with your wife. Your mail sounds a little "escalating". Both in the very direct wording and formal tone of the mail.
(Then again - I am a foreigner, and may mis-interpret the wording.)

After explaining the situation, I do not think asking for some compensation is out of order. Especially if you are wintering them.

[BeeCurious]

Really, I want to wash my hands of this matter, but it's possible that he's even more fried, and still unable to keep bees. It's unclear.

I've drafted the following email. My wife says it is too harsh. Thoughts?

mrspock,

I find it offensive for you to use "fried" when referring to the beekeeper who has suffered brain injury.

I agree with your wife, your proposed email does seem harsh (and rude). And from some of the language you use it sounds like you may have been be a little overwhelmed with moving the hive the first time.

And why bother saying "I am unable to justify the effort that would be require to overwinter your hive."
The man doesn't want you to does he?

Yes, it may be a hassle for you to return the hive to the local beek, but think of the pleasure it could be for this man to be able to watch his bees again...

Perhaps you should ask one of your local beekeeping friends to help you with moving the hive.

[Lauren]

I'm with your wife on this one, the letter comes across as harsh to me.

Why not just tell him what you told us? You were understood him to say that he needed a permanent home for the bees. You found them one.
They are no longer with you. Apologize for any misunderstanding and give back any extra equipment. You may want to note that you were happy to donate your time to re-homing this hive, but could not possibly ask the new owners for it back after all of the time and effort they have put into it.

A call to the brother to tell him the same thing might help.

[sqkcrk]

I bet that there uis alot of info that we are missing here. What kind of brain injury does one incurr, more than once, that would make it so a bee hive had to be gotten rid of and then, because the guy is recovering from the second such injury, now wants it back?

You were given this hive and equipment. You moved it. Now he wants it back. Give him back what you still have and chock the whole experience up to life. Clearly there were expectations not set down from the beginning. Both sides thought that tghey understood things not agreed upon.

What are you really out? Effort?

I see that one of your posts was deleted because of profanity. You must be pretty angry about this. Maybe you should find out more about the original owner of the hive. You might get a sense of what it is like to be him.

Good luck.

[colbec]

My take on this (IANAL) is that any agreement where there is inadequate documentation and consideration (value in exchange) is just an incomplete contract, and therefore open for renegotiation. In order for justice to be seen to be done, there needs to be some value placed on the equipment that was offered, and equivalent value handed over by the receiver, otherwise title does not transfer and in fact you can't give it away. By all means deduct from that any expense incurred to 'rescue' the bees and transport equipment away, that was a service to the other party. At this late point I see two possibilities, either you can come to some agreement with cash and a written receipt to make up the diff, or as much of the equipment as possible goes back. The bees are a separate issue. You probably saved the bees, those are like the kitten, unwanted, rescued and gone. The other party can get a new nuc next spring.

Awkward situation, my sympathies.

[honeybeekeeper]

Drama is the word for it!!...

[FindlayBee]

Older beekeeper has surgery and no longer can take care of his bees.

Older beekeeper needs to find a new home for his bees and equipment.

Older beekeeper's brother agrees that older beekeeper can no longer care for the bees.

Older beekeeper transfers bees and equipment to another beekeeper and asks nothing in return.

Older beekeeper decides that he wants his stuff back as he recovered better than expected.

Other beekeeper becomes puzzled and a bit upset as he is now being asked to "Give it Back".



I now how this goes. Similar things have happened to me. Someone doesn't need something, gives it away. A few months later asks for it back as they are now in need of it. Would be like someone giving you a car with a title transfer as they can no longer drive. Asks nothing for the car, but later decides they want it back or that they want money for it.

I am going to go out on a limb here, but perhaps the Older beekeeper wanted to temporarily transfer his bees and equipment to another beekeeper in order to keep the hive and equipment in use. He expected them to be returned when he asked. A relative got involved and knew that the bees and equipment were going to be moved. However, the relative did not know about it being a temporary situation and transfered full ownership to another person.

What I would probably do is keep the bees, give what is left of the equipment back and tell the person that you were under the impression that it was a full ownership transfer and did not expect this to be a temporary situation. The equipment that you are not able to return was given to another beekeeper that could use it and you no longer have it.

Once things get settled, I personally would never do it again without getting it in writing. In the example above with the car, title was transfered, sale complete. Prior owner cannot come back on you (at least in Ohio, the title is not to be signed until payment in full regardless of gift or purchase).