Colony Homogenization Thru Transportaion

**sqkcrk** · 10-01-2010, 05:34 PM

I was just wondering today about how much we may be spreading whatever is in our colonies amongst our colonies while transporting them long distances on semis and under nets.Bees must end up going into colonies other than their own while in transit. Don't you think?

How can the bees on a semi, that are out of their hives, under the net, possibily find their way home, back to their original hive? I guess that hive odor would clue them that they aren't in the right place, but certainly they don't orient themselves while traveling down the highways. Or, at least I can't imagine that they do.

So, let's say that they do end up in some other hive than their own. Wouldn't that spread from one colony to another pests (SHB, Nosema, and Varroa), viruses and diseases?

I wonder what it would take to keep each colony self contained w/out killing it through heat build up? Could it be done practically and affordably? Is it necassary? Would it help lessen our losses?

**fish_stix** · 10-01-2010, 07:23 PM

SHB don't hitch rides on bees as they're perfectly capable of flying and crawling from hive to hive. Now the other stuff, I don't know! Seems logical that they'll spread other junk around in the yards too, as much wandering around and robbing as they do. For instance, Nosema; if one hive gets it it's probably going to be a problem in other nearby hives. Every hive has Varroa to some extent so spreading mites around is akin to letting the horses out after the barn burns. So, I'd say that what happens on the ride is the least of your worries!

**Countryboy** · 10-01-2010, 07:35 PM

What about holding yards? You don't think bees drift from hive to hive in holding yards?

How many bees leave a hive in transit, and then make it back into ANY hive? There is a reason you end up with a big pile of dead bees under the net. (They didn't make it back into a hive.)

Hmm. Will guard bees defend the hive while in transit? Under normal situations, guard bees will allow different bees to enter the hive if they are carrying a load of nectar. Guard bees view bees from different hives as robbers if they try to get in but are not carrying any nectar. Since bees can't forage while under nets, they may be killed if they try to enter a hive other than their own hive, and it may be difficult to find they way back home.

I would think you may have larger problems of bees drifting into different hives and disease spread in holding yards, where bees have access to feed and return to hives carrying a full belly and are more likely to be accepted into a different hive.

**beeware10** · 10-01-2010, 08:01 PM

mark,
you must have had a weak moment when you started this one. If you
enclose your hives next spring let me know ahead so I can make extra nucs
for replacements. ha ha.
alan

**sqkcrk** · 10-01-2010, 08:15 PM

Did ya read the whole thing? I asked questions. I didn't say I was going to do anything. My post was purely questioning. Wondering. Speculating about what happens under the net while in transit and what that does to the hives on the truck.

I ain't dumb enuf to close my colonies and cause them to die from over heating. I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck.

But I'll keep your offer in mind Alan. I'd love to get a gift of nucs from you. Any time you have too many nucs w/out homes I'll be glad to take them off your hands gratis.

And yes, y'all I have thought about holding yards and drift there too. Maybe the "damage" is done well before getting on the truck.

Here's another question for ya. What if we traveled w/out nets. Nets are a relatively recent addition to bee transportation. I know a guy who used to drive right past the White House in Washington, DC back before the Interstate Highway system got underway. Two one ton trucks loaded w/ hives traveled down Rt. 301 all the way to South Carolina sans nets.

I wonder how not using nets would effect the hives? I know how that would effect where ever one stopped for fuel, but what about the hives? After all, those bees that would fly are older bees. Not destined to live much longer anyway. So, what's the loss? And would anything be gained?

**Roland** · 10-01-2010, 10:04 PM

SQKCRK - if we make the assumption that mites in any one hive are controlled enough that only one mite enters each cell, then all of her offspring will be inbred. If we we have limited drifting from outside yards, it may also be assumed(possibly incorrectly) that the mite population in any one yard will tend to become inbred, but to a lesser degree. If however, we mix hives from different yards, and the mites from those yards can mix, it is possible that when 2 mites enter the cell. they will not have the same genes, and the daughter of one mite can mate with the son of the other, and vise versa, and both gain hybrid vigor. Does any of that make sense? Or do I have the life cycle of mites wrong?

Roland

**rocky1** · 10-01-2010, 10:32 PM

1.) Nosema as well as other bacterial diseases and fungi can and will be spread through shared equipment, as all is in a commerical operation, as readily as it would be on a screened truck.

2.) Mites... don't need a screened truck to spread. All they need is time, and lack of treatment. The clover honey flow in ND is evidence of that. Our mite counts coming out of ND are unbelievable, regardless of how clean they seem to be coming into ND. However the honey flow lasts from June through August so there is plenty of time to proliferate.

3.) Feasibility of individually enclosing each hive is out of the question on a large scale operation. Time involved alone is out of the question. Storage of 5000 enclosures during the honey flow, is out of the question. And, loss to heat stress and suffocation would be unacceptable.

4.) Running without screens, loss of bees would be unacceptable on a 2000 mile trip. Too much bad publicity, too much bad public relations. The few bees that do escaped a well screened load often cause probelms. I am not above running unscreened if I can make the run overnight, but not during the day. First traffic jam your truck hits, you'll shut the interstate down.

5.) Dead bees on the truck are typically the result of poor driver habits. If the driver runs the load RIGHT you won't have 5 - 10 pounds of dead bees on a truck carrying 500 hives. Yes... I have seen half to 2/3 of a 55 gallon drum laying on the deck. But... those weren't run RIGHT.

Hypothetically, bunching and shipping them affords more than the perfect breeding ground for bee born pestilence. You also stress the bees in bunching and shipping them as well, weakening them by bunching them (diminshed forage, fighting, drifting), and piling them all on the truck (heat stress, more fighting, more drifting), and moving them 2000 miles (climatic changes, changes in length of daylight, loss of forage, change in forage, confinement for days).

Unfortunately until Mr. Scott makes the transporter room bigger, so we can beam them up here from Florida, we don't have a choice.

**AndreiRN** · 10-02-2010, 02:54 AM

I close the entrance with a rag during transportation because all the hives have screen bottoms.
The problem is not the disease spreading as much as the strength of the genetic immunity of each collonies and that is why it is important to bread queens from survival hives that have never been treated.
Sister queens from protected stock will have a handicap here.

**sqkcrk** · 10-02-2010, 07:08 AM

Rocky1,
Typically I wait until temps are fairly cold here in Northern NY before gathering hives and moving them all to SC. Usually this is in November before Thanksgiving, so I can get home for the holiday.

Last year, I moved them south in October. A. There was nothing for them here. B. I could get them south and feed them because a friend was doing so also and getting a load of syrup. Mutual benefits. I'm sure you've been there.

So, here's another question. Now that there is nothing for the bees to forage on here, asters being almost completely gone, why should I wait for cold weather? Are there advantages to moving a semi load of bees when temps are down, considering that as soon as they get a cpl hundred miles south they won't be cold any more?

I understand the idea of doing things when one can, but what would be the ideal? In your opinion. I only have one load worth of hives to move.

Thanks to all of the noncomms for your comments, but I real would like to hear from the experienced commercial beekeepers who move lots of loads of hives.

Boy that sounds condecending. Maybe I should delete it.

**mnbeekeeper** · 10-02-2010, 07:52 AM

to me it seems like letting the hives sit in a little cold weather is a good thing. they used to winter themselves. i know the hive beetle cant take the cold so maybe the longer they sit in cold the harder it is on them. i seem to notice a difference in the bees that went to texas and got split vs the bees that came right home from cali and sat in some snow in march for a while. those bees seem to have way less hive beetles. to get back on point, transporting bees or even just keeping bees in large numbers is obviously not the best thing for them but we do what we can. in the fall when its cold and they dont fly its fine it seems to keep large numbers close. but in the spring in texas in may when your trying to leave and you bring large numbers of hives into an area and it gets hot like 80 degrees. i think that is the worst for them. this last spring in texas i had a trucker screw me over. i moved all 800 singles in one night hoping for a truck the next night and he never showed so they sat stacked up in heat for 2 days. i really noticed some hives took a hit.

**sqkcrk** · 10-02-2010, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Roland

hybrid vigor.

Someone alot smarter than me will have to answer that question w/ any validity. I don't know. But I also don't think that hybrid vigor in mites has much to do w/ how effective they are at killing our colonies.

**rocky1** · 10-02-2010, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by sqkcrk

Now that there is nothing for the bees to forage on here, asters being almost completely gone, why should I wait for cold weather? Are there advantages to moving a semi load of bees when temps are down, considering that as soon as they get a cpl hundred miles south they won't be cold any more?

I understand the idea of doing things when one can, but what would be the ideal? In your opinion. I only have one load worth of hives to move.

sqkcrk,

The biggest issue is keping them cool, you must have cooler ambient air temperatures, air moving over them, or water running on them to do so.

In our operation we are typically on a honey flow in Florida right up to the point we leave to come to North Dakota. In our particular locale in the north, that is without fail June 15 - 25. Length of daylight plays an important role in nectar production on the alfalfa and clover, and the 3rd. week of June is when it happens where we're at. Doesn't matter how much rain you get or don't get, how hot or cold it is, the plants in our immediate area will start to produce somewhere in that window. Put your finger on the 21st. and 5 - 7 days either way is when you ship. Unfortunately that puts you shipping in terrible heat out of the deep south.

Going home, Dad likes to get his back earlier so we'll ship them as soon we get them stripped and are able too. This year the first load went south 2 weeks ago, mid-September, his second load should arrive there today.

We also shipped a load to LeGrande, CA 2 weeks ago, and another yesterday. Where is it also quite warm!

Typically we have tried to hold them until you get some good cool weather to make them go broodless, and treat one last time just before shipping, in attempt to knock the mites back. NOT because the weather is cooler for shipping. The guys are trying different methods, for different reasons this year.

First thing we try to do is find a driver that is experienced hauling bees. If he has his own bee nets, cross boards, V-Boards, and all necessary straps and winches, gets out of the truck and suits up, tells you how the net is rolled, and asks where he's going and when they want him there, he's probably a keeper.

If he doesn't have a hat and veil, or a bee suit, no nets, no boards, tries to tell you he'll be there around 2 in the afternoon, rather than dragging his feet a little to get there just before dark... you probably want to look for another driver. And, yes... we have sent them down the road empty.

When transporting during warmer weather, you have to keep air moving over the bees; your driver has to understand that. You pick up a sandwich in the morning and eat on the road during the day. You fill fuel before you start out in the morning, while the air is still cool, and plan on driving all day. You juggle your log books a little if you have to. You find creative routes around scales if they're hassling truckers. If you do get pulled in your driver needs to have the experience to BS his way through.

We generally tell our drivers...

-- The truck needs to keep moving as long as the temperatures are above 65 - 70 degrees! (60 - 65 daylight...70 or so at night)
-- You can stop for a nature call, fuel if you have too, or to grab a sandwich and go. But... if you are stopped more than 10 - 15 minutes you need to put some water on them.
-- The hotter the day, the more critical your window of opportunity to stop is. Warmer it is, the less time you have to stop.
-- If you break down, get the truck to someplace you can put water on the load. Using fire trucks is OK if necessary, just make sure they have not applied foam. The Foaming agent will suffocate bees.
-- Stay in touch with the guy on the other end. Call him and ask when he wants you in there. EARLY in the morning, so you're ready to unscreen at daybreak, or just before dusk works best. Be there when he tells you too. (Within reason of course!)
-- If you have to drag your feet to be there at dusk, DRAG YOUR FEET!
-- Dusk does not mean an hour after sunset. When you get to Florida with this load, your truck will be brown and fuzzy from one end to the other, and if it's too dark for the bees to fly, they will eat the unloading crew alive.

The unloading crew has to be ready to UNLOAD BEES. The faster you can get the load opened up and get air to everything, the quicker the load will cool off. Both literally and figuratively speaking. Temperament goes up with temperature, and the sooner you can open the load and cool them down, the nicer they will be to deal with. Opened up does not simply mean nets pulled, that means bees off the truck too so you are getting air to the inside hives.

As a rule we'll have a load unscreened and unloaded about 45 minutes after they park the truck, if we're spreading them right away. If they're simply going on the ground in the bunching yard, 30 minutes start to finish. We run 2 machines, 2 trucks, and the trucks are large enough we can haul the entire load off in one trip. On average the load is setting on the ground in the beeyards, and we're home in around 2 hours.

We don't see problems with the loads, and we seldom see many dead bees if they run them this way. No matter the temperature sqkcrk.

**sqkcrk** · 10-02-2010, 11:30 AM

Thanks Rocky. Good detailed answer.

I have been moving bees north and south for about 15 years or more now. But I can always learn something new from someone w/ vastly more experience than myself.

I have a good trucker. He has his own suit and gets on top of the load when it is time to unload in SC w/ bees all up in the air. I don't even like to go up there, but he does it willingly. I've learned alot from him. He costs more than other truckers, but he is dependable and helpful and we get along well w/ each other.

We usually pace each other on trips. If I have a load on my F-450 I try to get ahead of him and get unloaded. But usually we try to stay w/in a hundred miles of each other.

**beeware10** · 10-02-2010, 03:49 PM

mark
we have been taking bees to sc for 30+ years. I like to take them late nov
thru dec. I feel the break in brood cycle helps break the mite cycle. Also the extreme change in temp plus moving makes them start raising brood giving them young bees early. last year sc was 3-4 weeks late and ny was 2-3 weeks early. hope this year is back to normal. Less stress by beekeeper. we used to have tractor trailer but now only take a couple of hundred. I understand your concerns with a large holding yard with todays problems. Its easy going south but hard going north in the spring.

alan