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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    slate hill, new york, usa
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    6

    Default underdeveloped wings

    Fairly new to all this but having good luck so far, two hives this season and good production. one had swarmed and requeened itself, the other a new (may) package that has filled a large super and is more than set for winter.
    The problem is this...one hive has produced quite a few bees(100 or so that i've seen) with underdeveloped or missing wings....this is "so far" and i'm hoping it stops...any thought as to why? Can heat do this? Viral? thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon City, Oregon
    Posts
    985

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Hello, your bees have deformed wing virus ...DWV, this is caused by too high of a mite load. This time of year is probably too late to do any treatments other than powder sugar dusting, because most are temperature dependant and there just isn't enough time and temp. left before winter...powder sugar the heck out of them and pray good luck

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
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    1,698

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Agree, DWV. Mite loads too high and now they will more than likely not make it this winter. You will probably see alot more hatch out. These bees that are hatching now and for the last two weeks are your winter bees. They are the ones that will kick start your hive in spring. When they are weakened due to DWV or mites they usually start to die off in December to January. The damage is done. You might consider combining the healthy hive with this one. Shake the bees without the queen on the ground a ways away from the healthy hive and let the healthy bees find their way to the good hive. As for the capped brood, I would scrape those frames and get ready for next spring. The open larva and eggs, add to the healthy hive to shore them up. Sugar dust your healthy hive several times and as well, sugar dust the weakened hive the day before or several hours before you combine. It will dislodge several mites and you might transfer less to your healthy hive.

    g' luck

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    1,647

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    if you can get some formic pads soon, put them on, you may get enough warm temps this time of year for them to work where you are located but don't wait. mine are ready to come off, but a large beek south of me was up yesterday and he will be putting them on next week and has had success doing it. probable to late for apiguard. wouldn't merge the mites together.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    slate hill, new york, usa
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    thanks all....not the best news...fingers crossed...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada BC Delta
    Posts
    393

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Just curious, which hive is having the DWV problem? The one that swarmed and re-queened its self or the one that didn't?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    2,267

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Yes, it would be good to know which colony is afflicted. Also, if the colony makes it thru the winter, I'd consider requeening with a resistant strain of queen, so I wouldn't have to treat, or worry about mites or the DWV.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    slate hill, new york, usa
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    I'm not sure yet...i'm hoping older as it is the weaker....hustling today to find #8 screen for bottom...any thought about relocating a frame or two of healthy brood to "sick colony" to help for wintering?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,651

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    If it were me I would immediately treat both hives... so the mites won't travel between hives and if one is badly infected the odds are that both are. Also, the damaged one will collapse and it will be robbed out and the mites will spread. Personally I use a vaporizer with Oxalic acid. If I didn't have a vaporizer or access to one I would drench with Oxalic. Or else flash with formic acid. You have very little time and need to do this immediately for any chance to overwinter.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
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    1,698

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Quote Originally Posted by jcdsgn View Post
    ...any thought about relocating a frame or two of healthy brood to "sick colony" to help for wintering?

    NOOOOO. This colony more than likely will not make the winter. Why weaken your good colony. That healthy colony needs that brood because those is the bees that will make it to the spring. By putting healthy bees into your sick hive you will ensure the quick death of both hives

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
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    1,698

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    I was going to offer up the idea of a flash formic treatment but i did not know if that was legal in the US

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
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    1,651

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Quote Originally Posted by honeyshack View Post
    NOOOOO. This colony more than likely will not make the winter. Why weaken your good colony. That healthy colony needs that brood because those is the bees that will make it to the spring. By putting healthy bees into your sick hive you will ensure the quick death of both hives

    Totally agree

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    piedmont s.c.
    Posts
    244

    Smile Re: underdeveloped wings

    put screen bb with oil pans under both hives year round you dont have to use by the temp`and you may want to dust with powdered sugar.I dont think the sugar hurts the bees like acid.I use oil pans on all of mine < 60 more or less> . I think the chem` and acids dont help the bees in the long run.good luck rock.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
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    1,651

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    There is not enough time for that method IMO. these colonies are on the brink of collapse and it may not be possible to save them... the above takes weeks/months to work if it does at all.
    Last edited by Barry; 09-30-2010 at 02:57 PM. Reason: quoting

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Calvert, Md,USA
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    1,709

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    There are some other posts on this issue that IMO bear looking at. I'll play devils advocate here,,,,I'm no expert, I can only share my experience. Have you done a mite count?? It is my understanding that DFWV is a common affliction\virus that is exacerbated by varroa,,,not necessarily the cause. I have seen DFW on my bees,,,,self evicting and involuntary,,, my mite count was one. My hives are doing well and anticipate surviving the winter. No plan to treat. All I'm saying is,,,look at what you are doing and consider the options. My HO

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kingsley, MI. USA
    Posts
    167

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Thank you Rick....my sentiments exactly. This is getting really old. Here all these people are telling JCDSGN that his hive is definitely severely infested with varroa and that it is almost certainly doomed!

    What nonsense! Do some research about DWV before posting about it please!

    Here is a link to the thread to which I believe Rick was referring.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246898

    DWV is usually only a minor issue unless there is a severe varroa infestation, which there may or may not be. Do a mite drop and find out.

    Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

    www.thewarrestore.com
    Last edited by Barry; 09-30-2010 at 06:33 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
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    2,760

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    jcdsgn,

    Pretty much all the responses that you have received to your question about deformed wings on your bees have focused on treating them quickly with one method or another to reduce the mite load before winter. The majority of responses also offered a poor prognosis for their ability to make it through the winter, even with treatment.

    I don't know how you feel about treating for mites, or if you are willing to let the bees deal with them without treatments of any kind, or not deal with them. I run all my bees totally treatment free in regards to mites, no chemicals, vapors, essential oils, sugar dusting, drone frames, screened bottom boards, or any other gadget or conconction I'm not familiar with. I let them draw natural comb in foundationless frames. I also do not use anything other than ordinary Italian stock. I think most of my hives that have been around for more than a couple years have mites to some degree, I don't do mite drop counts. I know that some even have DWV and have had it for over a couple years, with no observable impact on production or colony strength, that's a fact. I know some hives have DWV because occasionally I see a few bees crawling around in the grass in front of the hive. I inspect my hives frequently and spend alot of time in my bee yards studying individual hive activity at the entrances, and I have yet to actually see a bee with DWV in the hive or on the landing board, just in the grass.

    Simply seeing bees with DWV around your hives in the grass does not, let me repeat, does not mean that those hives are going to collapse and not make the winter. If that was always true, I should have experienced massive losses by now, but that's not the case.

    This is how I see it, treating does nothing to enable the honey bee to cope with mites on their own, period. Anything you do treatment-wise to remove a mite population from a hive has no long term benefit to getting a resistant bee stock developed. In order to get on the right path to a resistant stock, you have got to let the bees deal with mites on their own, some will and some won't. The ones that do you breed from, just like many are doing today.

    So you have to decide if you want to contribute, whether you have one hive or a thousand, to getting off the treatment grind, and developing a truly resistant bee. The choice is yours right now. John

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Grantsburg,WI
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    TREAT or Else?
    Feel free to feed the mites if you think the world will be better off for doing so.?
    Beware of well intended comments that will yield unintended results.
    Just kill the suckers and give your girls a break, before its too late....IMO
    I fed mites for several years, before the girls got my attention.

    BM
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JOHN F. KENNEDY -

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    slate hill, new york, usa
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Much appreciation for all the advice....here's an update....Friday morning-since it was raining i had to do a lot of prep just to get to the hive and figured, since I had no other option, sugaring was quickest....after that first dusting (Sat AM) there was a small amount of mite drop-off.....that eve (Fri eve after i dusted) I picked up some apigard from a local warehouse and applied that Saturday morning...which was sunny...Sunday morning was "oh-my-god-look-at-all-those-mites!" day...HUGE drop off...now its wait and see...
    thanks again to all!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,698

    Default Re: underdeveloped wings

    Good Job!

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