How is a Warre functionally any different than a foundationless Lang?

[Tara]

Sorry if this is a major debate and I just sparked another bonfire....but I haven't seen any posts on this particular yet.

I thought the major benefits to TBHs were 1) calmer bees, because you don't expose more than 1 bar at a time, but Warre hives don't appear to have this feature, since the bees have to be able to travel vertically. 2) With horizontal TBHs, you don't have to lift anything.

Besides providing insulation at the top (which you could do with an extra super on a Lang) and putting new boxes under the old (which you could also do with a Lang), how is a Warre different from using foundationless bars (with or without a frame, I'm not sure the bees care) in a Lang hive?

Thanks!

[David LaFerney]

The shape of it for one thing. The hive space is more or less 12 inches square so the winter cluster doesn't have to move back and forth to utilize the stores.

[bigbearomaha]

As you already mentioned, Warre hives have a quilt box. you could make a quilt box for a Lang, but that is not how they were traditionally designed.

Warre boxes are much smaller than Lang boxes. and they are intended to be nadired (placed below the stack) rather than supered (placed on top of the stack).

Abbe Warre did tell in his book that he provided directions to build frames for use in the hives or it could be used with just top bars. He personally preferred using only top bars as he did not recommend moving the hives as a migratory pollinator now would move hives. He feels that using top bars gives the bees the maximum capacity or space to draw comb out as they will. With frames, they have less space to draw comb.

The biggest idea of Warre hives is that one is encouraged to take a minimalist intervention approach and not open the hive unless it is for specific purposes, such as preparing in the Spring, harvesting in the Fall or rectifying some major problem throughout the season as based on exterior observations. (H Storch's book "At the Hive Entrance" is a very good companion to making such determinations based on external observations)

Abbe Emile Warre intended the hive to be used by the 'average" person who did not want to or was able to tend to bees on a daily or fairly consistent basis. It is designed to achieve a large honey harvest with minimal opening or "working" of the hive. Much of his explanation in his book for the methodology is based very much on biological behaviors, traits and similarities to 'natural hive" activities much as possible.

Some have described it as akin to robbing a hive in a tree, made easy.

Essentially, the bees live in the boxes much as they would un interrupted in a tree hive and because the boxes have removable top bars and are separate boxes themselves, it is that much easier to harvest honey. The harvester need only take those boxes of honey that are only honey and leave boxes on the hive that are mixture of honey and brood.

(this usually leaves 2 to 3 boxes on the hive over the winter in which they continue to work down into the bottom box and backfill the top box(es) to live off during winter.)

Big Bear

[Tara]

Hm...interesting. Thanks for the info!

I'll have to add one of these to my list of types of hives to build. Any favorite designs out there, or is there pretty much just one?

[Daddy'sBees]

Thanks Big Bear. Very good historical information for us all!!! I like thoughts here.

[bigbearomaha]

well, the design is pretty basic but does allow some "tweaking'" which experimentalists will inevitably pursue.

the actual dimensions of the hive are very specific in his book, but, I know of many designs which modify them to reflect modern consumer dimensional lumber.

Abbe Warre in his book, described two types of roofs or tops and I have seen a variety of other designs which are meant to accomplish the same protection and ventilation as his original designs with modern appearances.

I have seen many modify the floor of the hive to a screened IPM bottom similar to many current designs.

The number of top bars and spaces between them will likely play a major role in determining inside box dimensions if you choose to deviate from his original plans.


Daddy's Bees, thank you. Warre's hive and methods are one of many out there I personally use and have studied extensively. I don't beleive in withholding information about different beekeeping methods, hives and approaches as every beekeepers personal and unique situations and circumstances will dictate what works best for them individually.

The more information people have, the better they are able to make an educated decision for themselves.

Big Bear

[sjj]

... Any favorite designs out there, or is there pretty much just one?

I have found a film from Japan you may like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZldn...eature=related

There are more nice films from the Youtube member mituro36.

[11x]

i run a quilt box on my foundationless lang. havent wintered with it yet but it does appear to help them cap honey faster wich would suggest moisture removal

[Joseph Clemens]

sjj,
Excellent youtube video of traditional Japanese beekeeping. It seems that the youtube video from Japan, shows a hive very similar to a Warre hive. But, of course, they are running Apis cerana.

It seems like a Warre, but without the top bars. The youtube video did give the impression that it was much more work than a traditional Langstroth style hive.