To smoke or not

[dulley]

I always dress with my full bee suit and have never been stung. I have stopped smoking my hives before I work on them. I was wondering if it is more disruptive to the bees to smoke them and make them start gorging honey or not to smoke them and let them react to their alarm pheromones?

Thanks, Jim

[sqkcrk]

Why do you wear a suit?

I'd rather work bees w/out a suit or veil then I would w/out a smoker. Beekeepers have been using smoke to work bees for thousands and thousands of years. What harm do you think you are doing your bees by smoking them?

I don't know what "harm" you are refering to.

[beemerry]

For some reason smoke seems to have a calming effect on bees. Since I am aware of this I prefer to smoke them and wear a minimum or no protective gear for convenient working as well as to stay on the good side of the bees.
If they go into attack mode I do not feel that it is good for the bees even if I am not stung.

[AstroBee]

Can't say that I know the answer of which is more disruptive, but I do know that for certain colonies smoke is a necessity. I have a few colonies that just get too angry if smoke is not used. Once applied they can be worked rather easily. If not, its a sting fest - which is very disruptive to both the bees and the beekeeper. Other colonies are so gentle that smoke is not necessary. I always have the smoker with me just in case. I'd say that if your bees remain calm then perhaps go without. Experiment as sometimes a very little smoke goes a long way.

[dulley]

Smoking a beehive does two things to the bees. First, it makes them think their tree is on fire and they start to eat lots of honey to prepare to leave their burning home. This disrupts them and can stop the queen from laying for a full day. Smoking masks the alarm pheromone which may reduce the alarm response, but it actually does not calm them. My feeling is the bees, especially the queen, get back to normal behavior quicker after the release of an alarm pheromone than after reacting to a fire in their hive.

I always wear a full suit because the bees do not typically try to sting cloth as they do skin so fewer bees die and I don't get stung. It also gives me much more time to gently remove and reinstall frames so I do not crush any bees.

[fish_stix]

I assume that you personally communicated with the bees to get this info about them thinking their tree is on fire?

[ChristopherA]

I take a smoker out with me to the hives for just in case emergency, however I have started using a new method. I take a 2:1 mix spray bottle with 2 peppermint disolved in it. Masks the scent, bees are easy to work with and I have noticed it really cut down on the robbing. Not to mention if you want to kill some wasp, yellowjackets or bald face wasps in my case, spray a little on a piece of wood or block near one of your hives then take the hive tool to them. I think I killed around 20+ today. The bees love the spray and you dont have to use very much at all, just 1 or 2 sprays when you open the hive.

It also works when combining too. Spray hives very well, then combine the queenless in and walla...by the time they clean up and the peppermint goes away they are living happy together.

[Countryboy]

This disrupts them and can stop the queen from laying for a full day.

How come I can get in hives day after day using smoke, and I haven't found a hive where the queen stopped laying eggs for a day after being smoked?

Smoking masks the alarm pheromone which may reduce the alarm response, but it actually does not calm them.

Reducing the alarm response is known as calming them.

My feeling is the bees, especially the queen, get back to normal behavior quicker after the release of an alarm pheromone than after reacting to a fire in their hive.

Why is it that smoking a hive everyday seems to have little lasting effect, but if you provoke alarm pheromones everyday, the bees remember and will immediately come after you when they see you coming, before you even have a chance to provoke the alarm response?

I always wear a full suit because the bees do not typically try to sting cloth as they do skin so fewer bees die and I don't get stung.

It has been my experience that when bees go into attack mode, they don't care if it is cloth or skin. They go after whatever is closest. If bees didn't like stinging cloth, my jeans would never look like pincushions.

It also gives me much more time to gently remove and reinstall frames so I do not crush any bees.

How does wearing a beesuit give you more time?

I'm going to have to start wearing my beesuit, as time is in short supply and I need all the time I can get.

My advice is to get into hives a few hundred times - I suspect you'll change your mind about smoke.

[valleyman]

dulley,
my advice to you is to listen to the ones (fishstix, sqkcrk, and countryboy) that know that you can't communicate with the bees, so you need to quit assuming that they think their tree is on fire or other assumptions that are nothing more than old wives tales. Those guys have done forgot more than I'll ever know. So I know to listen them, rather than some so called bee whisperer.
Use smoke when working your bees and you will be better off and so will your bees.

Christopher,
All you are doing is drawing the unwanted pest around your hive with the bait. Just like a fly If you want flys around, one sure way of having them is to put out bait. Thats what a trap contains.

[Tara]

Christopher--I used syrup spray with Honey-B-Healthy for a while, but it made the bees cluster on top of the frames to lick it up, and drew the yellowjackets. Lately I've been using water with a little Peppermint Essential Oil mixed in; the water makes them disperse down between frames, and the peppermint masks a sting without making me sticky.

I also don't use smoke--I dont' know about Italians, but the Russians figure out real quick where the smoke is coming from, and come after me instead of eating honey.

I read at one point that perhaps 'eating honey when smelling smoke' may be another thing beekeepers have unconsciously bred for, instead of the 'swarm out of the tree when we smell smoke' instinct that might otherwise exist. If that were the case, it would make sense that Italians, who have been domesticated for much longer, would become calmer, while Russians, who existed feral for a long time, do not. Just an idea...

[peacekeeperapiaries]

This disrupts them and can stop the queen from laying for a full day......

Then why is it when I smoke a hive and find the queen I can watch her walking around on the frame layin eggs in cells??? I dont think the smoke disrupts them anywhere near as much as you think.....trust us when we tell you its just fine to smoke the bees....they might be gentle today but on some other day coming soon you will wish you had that smoker and new how to properly use it.

[walking bird]

At this time of year, if I open any of my hives (with the possible exception of the Carniolans) without smoke, I'd be covered. As it is, they're still pretty ornery even with the smoke--- just that time of year for them, they're real protective of their stores.

One thing I learned--- I switched to some leather-palmed work gloves instead of my usual rubber ones. When one of the hives got ticked, the girls honed in on those gloves and inundated them; my hands were full of energetically stinging bees (only one got through, and just barely, I'm glad to say).

Back to rubber gloves for me!

[dulley]

To fish_stix - Yes, you can communicate with bees just by observing them, but you first have to have an IQ higher than theirs. The majority of human learning is from observation.

I like the idea of using peppermint or something they like to calm them, but I always wondered why people think smoke calms them. It appears to me that it just scares them as every bee book states it does.

I used to smoke when I first started beekeeping. When I open my six hives (by the way, I have never lost a hive in three years), the Italian bees are often calm. When I would smoke them in the past, they always dispersed, became agitated, ran or flew to try to avoid the smoke. They were much more calm before the smoke. Something like peppermint or light sugar water which they like makes a lot more sense and I will try it next time if the bees get alarmed.

One response mentioned he went into the hive every day and the queen was not disrupted. I was wondering what would someone do in the hive every day? I go into mine very seldom and, as I mentioned, I have never lost a hive. Is there perhaps something I am not doing daily or at least frequently that I should be doing in the hive?

Thanks to all of you who responded for the time to give me input on thisl!!

[valleyman]

Hey guys Remember some people on here are not on here to learn, just state their method with no chance of learning anyone elses, or why.

[chandler]

I'm not sure if it harms them, but I've had the exact opposite reaction of mine to smoking. They get quite irritated when I smoke them. I stopped and just move slowly and I can do just about anything with them and they seem fine. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fuel that people use? I usually use pine straw.

[John Gesner]

If smoking your bees is causing more problems than it is helping you, there may be a need to re-assess your method of smoking. Are you using fuel that is offensive to your bees? Are you pumping up your bellows too much, generating hot smoke instead of cool? Are you pointing your smoker directly at bees, blasting them at close range or are you gently puffing smoke over your bees to calm them and move them?

When you smoke, the bees are going to move. That's the whole idea. Perhaps you need to work bees with some other beekeepers to expose yourself to other tactics.

Lastly, please don't try to equate human emotion to insects. We all may "love" our bees, but let's not get carried away here. They are and will always be primitive, reactive, instinctive insects no more capable of human emotion and thought than that smoker you use (or don't use).

Good luck!

[chandler]

If smoking your bees is causing more problems than it is helping you, there may be a need to re-assess your method of smoking. Are you using fuel that is offensive to your bees? Are you pumping up your bellows too much, generating hot smoke instead of cool? Are you pointing your smoker directly at bees, blasting them at close range or are you gently puffing smoke over your bees to calm them and move them?

Personally, I think this is what my issue is. Technique. Thanks for the ideas John.

[sqkcrk]

Lastly, please don't try to equate human emotion to insects. We all may "love" our bees, but let's not get carried away here. They are and will always be primitive, reactive, instinctive insects no more capable of human emotion and thought than that smoker you use (or don't use).

Good luck!

Thanks John, I had a similar reaction to the idea that the bees are "frieghtened" by the smoke. Bees don't fear or hate or have fondness for or anything like feelings such as we do. They may feel pain, I don't know about that.

Bees are reactive. Puff smoke at them and most of them will move away from the smoke. Some will take to consuming honey. Though I have never seen mass gourgings going on. And i don't know how much the queen is effected by smoke. I too have seen plenty of queens laying eggs on combs that I had in my hands. Right after the hive was smoked and as smoke was applied during the inspection process.

I wanted to ask this in another Thread in which the person didn't want to use "bee gone" to remove honey supers. Do you use perfume or deorderant or aftershave or air fresheners or other chemicals in your day to day life? Why? What for? So, why wouldn't you use something similar in your hive managment? If that isn't too off topic.

[AstroBee]

Not sure I'd call it a mass gourging, but I have observed that after smoke bees are much harder to remove from honey frames. They seem very intent on staying anchored to the honey cells. This makes me believe that there's some truth to the idea that bees consume honey after smoke has been used. Of course, once the smoke dissipates the bees will likely replace the honey. Smoke is one of our many tools - when used properly it can have an amazing impact on the ability to work otherwise aggressive bees.

[John Gesner]

I wanted to ask this in another Thread in which the person didn't want to use "bee gone" to remove honey supers. Do you use perfume or deorderant or aftershave or air fresheners or other chemicals in your day to day life? Why? What for? So, why wouldn't you use something similar in your hive managment? If that isn't too off topic.

Actually, I don't use any products that are perfumed. Partly because I'm a deer hunter and I just avoid scented things. Partly also because some perfumes are a trigger for my migraines. And I don't care for "stick ups" or "plug ins" around my home. A home should smell clean, not smell like you're trying to cover up lazy housekeeping. But that's all a little off topic I suppose.

I extract honey for a number of customers. Sometimes I can smell Bee Quick, sometimes I can't. I can usually smell smoke on peoples equipment, but I don't think it affects the taste of their honey. I think they'd have to use an awful lot of one or the other to taint their honey.

As to the affect of smoke on the queen, I think a lot of that has to do with time of the year. I've noticed that in the spring when I'm trying to find the queens to put them under my excluders, the less smoke I use the better. More than one seasoned beekeeper has told me that smoke will make them runny.