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Thread: Nicot system

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    304

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Thanks Mike. Actually, I wanted to tape it on the top of the cells, not on the bottom, but your concern is well noted. Thanks for the insight.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Butler, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Nicot system

    I always spray a little sugar water on the grid and place it in the hive for 24hrs before queening the box. They will slick up all the old eggs. If they start filling cups with honey, set the box on outside of hive and let them clean it up..then install your queen and place back in the hive.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Walker County, Texas
    Posts
    201

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    There is no point transferring eggs. They will just remove them. It takes four days from when the queen is confined to when you have larvae. This is what you want to transfer. that's four elapsed days. In other words, the day you confine the queen is 0 elapsed days. The next day when you release her is 1 elapsed day. Three days after that is 4 elapsed days. To put it another way, if you confine the queen on Sunday, you will have larvae on Thursday.
    Hi, Mr. Bush or any other person please answer. We split our queen rearing hive it will be 15 days ago the same time we tried to get eggs to raise the queens the first time. My question is,with that hive being without a queen now for 15 days,will they still raise queens if we put four day old larvae in there now or do we need to make another hive queenless to raise the queens ?
    Before man took over bees there was nature,it did a better job.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,290

    Default Re: Nicot system

    >We split our queen rearing hive it will be 15 days ago the same time we tried to get eggs to raise the queens the first time.

    Where there drones flying?

    > My question is,with that hive being without a queen now for 15 days,will they still raise queens if we put four day old larvae in there now or do we need to make another hive queenless to raise the queens ?

    You made them queenless 15 days ago. I would expect a laying queen in about 9 more days. She probably emerged about five days ago and you just haven't seen her. Giving them eggs and larvae is good insurance if you are worried. It they are indeed queenless (which I doubt) they will start queen cells.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Walker County, Texas
    Posts
    201

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Mr. Bush,yes there are drones.We made the hive queenless with no brood or eggs to rear queens from a nicot system.They only have bees ,honey,and pollan.The first round of trying to make queens we only gave them fresh eggs. The bees are now without a queen for 15 days,we now have 4 day larvae,will the still raise the queens ?
    Before man took over bees there was nature,it did a better job.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,292

    Default Re: Nicot system

    What I do when my cell builder's bees begin growing too old for typical nurse bee duties: Move the box to a previously unoccupied location, add more nurse bees by shaking them from other colonies (make sure not to get any queens - an excluder can help with that). Add frames of emerging worker brood, the emerging brood soon become nurse bees. I prefer doing all of the above, if the resources are available. Relocating the hive will soon eliminate many of the older bees, which have become foragers. They will go out to forage and then return to the old location. Once they are gone there will be more room for additional nurse bees. The concentration of nurse bees and availability of quality food are two of the most important ingredients for growing exceptional queen cells.

    ----------------
    As concerns the Nicot system. It is way too easy to raise queens using several other techniques that require no gear of any kind. And grafting is way too easy, even for me, and I'm nearly blind, and have a pinched nerve in my neck that causes my hands to spasm.

    Now, if someone would like to donate any of these kits, I'll be happy to try them.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 03-18-2013 at 10:22 PM.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Carlton,WA,USA
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Nicot system

    One problem with Nicot, Jentner or similar systems is the queen is reluctant to lay in plastic cups. In theory, if you come back in 24 hours there should be eggs. Maybe, Maybe not.

    I find that spraying the cage with sugar syrup helps. The bees clean up the syrup and leave the cell "polished" and the queen usually starts laying in 12 hours or so.

    I used to spray the cage and install it for polishing, then come back the next day to install the queen. But I found I can eliminate the added trip by installing the queen directly into the wet cage.

    Several other tips:

    1. Unless you know there is a flow on, feed, feed, feed.
    2. Do not transfer eggs. The larvae must have hatched.
    3. The closer you know the age of the larvae, the better. Others may not agree with me but I try to transfer the youngest larvae I can.
    4. I base my calendar on the assumption the queen starts laying in 12 hours. Can't prove this but it usually works. So if the queen is installed in the afternoon, I assume she starts laying the next morning. If I install in the morning, I assume she starts laying that afternoon or evening.
    5. It requires some experience to guess how young the larvae are. Sometimes there will be both eggs and small larvae. This means the larvae are really young. I assume they are 12 hours or less. If I inspect and find only eggs, I come back the next day and will find larvae. I assume they are 12 to 24 hours old.
    6. 36 hour old larvae is the oldest you should use. I try to stay under 24 hours for a margin of safety.

    There are many systems of "starting" and "finishing" the cells. Search other threads to get tips on those parts of the process. The cage is just the first step. I use it instead of grafting because my eyesight is not that great and I have a tremor in my hands (all the males in my family have this to some extent or other.)

    Good Luck

    "Met-How" Kraig

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,290

    Default Re: Nicot system

    >We made the hive queenless with no brood or eggs to rear queens from a nicot system.

    I'm not clear on the exact sequence of events. Here is my calendar for the Jenter/Nicot:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#calendar

    >They only have bees ,honey,and pollan.The first round of trying to make queens we only gave them fresh eggs.

    I'm not sure I follow. You got the queen to lay in the box? You gave eggs to them to get them to draw queens? Eggs do not work. They will only use larvae and only freshly hatched larvae. They will remove eggs.

    > The bees are now without a queen for 15 days,we now have 4 day larvae,will the still raise the queens ?

    Now you have the issue that there are no nurse bees as there is no larvae. I would give them some open brood first for a day so they can get back into feeding larvae and there will be some nurse bees. Then put the queen cells next to the open brood so the nurse bees will be there.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Walker County, Texas
    Posts
    201

    Default Re: Nicot system

    You can't just shake bees from one hive in another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    What I do when my cell builder's bees begin growing too old for typical nurse bee duties: Move the box to a previously unoccupied location, add more nurse bees by shaking them from other colonies (make sure not to get any queens - an excluder can help with that). Add frames of emerging worker brood, the emerging brood soon become nurse bees. I prefer doing all of the above, if the resources are available. Relocating the hive will soon eliminate many of the older bees, which have become foragers. They will go out to forage and then return to the old location. Once they are gone there will be more room for additional nurse bees. The concentration of nurse bees and availability of quality food are two of the most important ingredients for growing exceptional queen cells.

    ----------------
    As concerns the Nicot system. It is way too easy to raise queens using several other techniques that require no gear of any kind. And grafting is way too easy, even for me, and I'm nearly blind, and have a pinched nerve in my neck that causes my hands to spasm.

    Now, if someone would like to donate any of these kits, I'll be happy to try them.
    Before man took over bees there was nature,it did a better job.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Walker County, Texas
    Posts
    201

    Default Re: Nicot system

    My thanks to all.
    Before man took over bees there was nature,it did a better job.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,292

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan Italian Bee View Post
    You can't just shake bees from one hive in another.
    Sure you can, I do it all the time. Generally, I'm working with nurse bees, used to boost weaker hives/nucs and for growing queen cells. They can easily be separated from older bees. For instance, if you shake bees into a screened box with no cover, the nurse bees will accumulate/cluster in the box, and the older field bees will fly away home. Nurse bees don't know where their origin home is. Nurse bees are universally accepted in any hive, and they will rarely bring harm to a resident queen, if one should be present.

    Another way to quickly add nurse bees, is to open the receiving hive by removing its cover, then cover most of it's top with a cloth, leaving a gap a few inches wide somewhere, where bees being added can enter the hive. If you shake bees from other donor hives onto this cloth, the field bees will quickly take flight and return to their original location, all nurse/house bees will remain. They are easily accepted by their new colony and I've never had them cause trouble for a resident queen. But be sure not to overlook a queen that may be introduced this same way, that's almost assured to cause trouble.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 03-22-2013 at 06:42 AM. Reason: fixing typo, "if" to "of"
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Nicot system

    I had great luck with this system. I put in all of the cups and my queen filled out most of all of them. I only had room for 20 cell cups so I picked the ones with the most royal jelly in them. I also used the cloake board to make a starter hive and a finisher hive. This worked very well and I checked today to see how many queen cells were capped. 18/20!!!! yup that s 90% for my first time. I'm having to make nuc boxes to hold that many.
    Good luck, this system works very well coupled with a cloake board for drawing them out.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    6

    Sad Re: Nicot system

    Quote Originally Posted by elovvorn View Post
    I had great luck with this system. I put in all of the cups and my queen filled out most of all of them. I only had room for 20 cell cups so I picked the ones with the most royal jelly in them. I also used the cloake board to make a starter hive and a finisher hive. This worked very well and I checked today to see how many queen cells were capped. 18/20!!!! yup that s 90% for my first time. I'm having to make nuc boxes to hold that many.
    Good luck, this system works very well coupled with a cloake board for drawing them out.
    Update: Two days ago, I installed two queen cells in a 5 frame nuc with 1 frame of capped brood w/nurse bees and a frame of pulled out comb with a feeder. Today after a cold spell I checked them and only 3 nucs are still alive...... What in the world happened? The weather didn't freeze, it had dropped to 39 degrees. I looked inside the dead nucs and found in each one all of the bees balled up and dead.
    What is the trick here folks?

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Sounds like they couldn't reach enought stores they can die with honey on the ends of the frames when it gets cold they tighten up and not being able to access stores.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Quote Originally Posted by Velbert View Post
    Sounds like they couldn't reach enought stores they can die with honey on the ends of the frames when it gets cold they tighten up and not being able to access stores.
    That makes sense. There weren't any stores around their little ball they made. I'll have to chalk that one up to another Beekeeper Error!

  16. #36

    Default Re: Nicot system

    Quote Originally Posted by elovvorn View Post
    I'll have to chalk that one up to another Beekeeper Error!
    The lessons are painful.....but they stick.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

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