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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    piedmont s.c.
    Posts
    244

    Smile Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    steveg has the right idea, I do every thing the same as he does.and my 21 frame ex' is bolted to a heavy short table the ex' has no legs.good luck rock.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Well thanks for the replies folks. I went with Fuzzys's method as I liked the idea of being able to move the extractor around.
    I took a 3/4 ply 4 by 8, cut it in half and glued it together. then added 3 large swivel casters and the with bolts and wingnuts I attached the extractor to the platform. I took it for a spin this afternoon and extracted 12 gallons.
    Just as Fuzzy said it oscillated back and forth about an inch and didn't try to leave Wisconsin. Adrian.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chippew County, WI, USA
    Posts
    650

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Really? I may have to try this myself. thats if I ever catch up with all the other things I want to try myself.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    There must be some sort of physics rationale as to why this works. I don't know why it worked, but it did. Adrian.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Montgomery County, MD, USA
    Posts
    115

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Adrian or Fuzzy can you all post some pictures of this setup. Also why 3 and not 4 casters is there any significant difference?
    If you can spend a perfectly useless afternoon in a perfectly useless manner, you have learned how to live. - Lin Yutang

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,236

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Habutti,

    If you go to post number 19 from NowThen he/she has a link to a photo or two.
    As to why 3 casters... In a triangle pattern that is outside the center of gravity a 3 legged stand is ALWAYS stable on it's own. By design it cannot wobble. A 4 legged design is never actually stable because it is not possible to have all 4 legs touching at the same time. You will always get some wobble (perhaps small) from any chair on a hard surface. Any wobble at the base is magnified 2-3x at the top.

    Adrian, the quicker you spin it up, the less the wobble you will get. Badly balanced loads actually work better at higher speeds with this setup.

    Fuzzy

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Habutti, I've not mastered the photo posting yet, but my picture would show my Maxant on plywood like Nowthen's. I used 3 casters as Fuzzy suggested and I trimmed the plywood into a large triangle with the flat side on the front to support the bucket, and the point to the back. I left the margin of the triangle wide enough so that if I push the base against a wall the motor won't bang on it. Adrian.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Nowthen,Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    183

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    I think that the stability of mine can probably be attributed to the mass of the base/platform that I use. It's heavy. The 4x4s are half-lapped at all of the joints with glue and lag screws keeping it all together. There are 4 casters with some sort of plastic tires that may take up some of the vibration as well.
    The design is by accident. I use wheeled platforms like this to keep large floor fans, snowmobiles, fish houses, and other junk mobile in my barn.

    My dad tells a story of how his dad made a platform for their hand-cranked extractor back the 1920s. The platform was designed so that my grandmother (think Aunt Bea) could stand on it while cranking - keeping it nice and stable.
    -Phil Domeier
    www.nowthenhoney.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,655

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Fuzzy - Theory predicts your method should work, and you proved it. How about the next step for those of us that have a pipe that runs from the extractor to a tank? What do you say about 3 gentle springs , mounted in the area of the casters, that keeps the extractor centered, but still free to oscillate?

    Roland

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Bermuda
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Roland - It's nice to see someone thinking outside the box, even though you missed the whole point of the coasters. Bucketing from a 12 framer got real old, real fast for me.

    I can't see the springs doing anything but making it rock more. Remember the purpose of the coasters is to transfer the top heavy tipping motion (extractor walking) into linear motion on the ground.

    Kinda like running and jumping on a chair without wheels. (One foot where your legs bend at the knees on the chair and the other on the top of back rest.) You can tip the chair and pivot your way down on the rear legs, if you do it right.

    Now do the same thing with a chair with wheels. Now instead of just the rear legs and the ground being your pivot point, inside the center of the wheel is one and where the wheel meets the ground is another and in the case of a coaster the top directional pivot is another. This causes the chair to role forward and you to go backward and land on your head.
    Note: Wheeled chair is still upright and did not tip, across the room maybe, but still upright non the less.

    Putting springs on the chair with no wheels would make the initial tipping easier would it not.

    If I was you I would try the springs on top of the feet of the extractor first. But what more would achieve over my original method?
    “The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory.”

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,655

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    I believe I comprehend what you are describing. Please re-read my post, with emphasis on the:

    3 gentle springs , mounted in the area of the casters

    If the springs are JUST strong enough to move the extractor, we have gained the ability to locate the AVERAGE position of the extractor , while still allowing it to compensate for the imbalance.

    To use your chair analogy, Put 3 long elastic members, like a bungee cord, on the wheeled chair, each 120 degrees from each other. Run and jump on it, from any direction. . You will roll, but be gently returned to your starting neutral position.

    With proper piping, either a solid vertical pipe that enters a large funnel , or with flexible tubing, we now can have an extractor that finds it's own balance, and can be drained while running, because it's Average position is constant.

    Roland

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brady, washington
    Posts
    708

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    best way to keep a extrator from walking is to take 5/8 inch ply wood cut in half making two 4'x4' squares and glue them togather making it 1"-1/8 thick then mount your extractor to that. won't woble but you might get a frame blow out.
    99.99% of questions can be answered by Just reading books.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Issaquah,WA,USA
    Posts
    2,344

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    This is what we did. The wheels lock and it stays pretty much in the same position.


  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,236

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Roland,
    I do comprehend what you envision and it might possibly work 98% of the time. But the other 2% of the time could be extremely ugly and could possibly destroy something. I will say with some certainty that the wheels will be more effective than the springs.
    I must say that I have no real knowledge of mechanical engineering or spring properties so this is just my reasoning that follows.
    a. The imbalance in the load imparts ENERGY to the body of the extractor as it swings around.
    b. The wheels absorb the energy by moving in the direction of the force and trying to follow it around the circular path. This essentially dissipates the ENERGY.
    c. A spring, on the other hand, STORES energy and returns the 50-80% of the ENERGY when the load is removed. Therein lies the problem. If you hit exactly the right speed ( matching the speed that the spring RELEASES the ENERGY) then the spring will amplify the load and tear up the extractor. This is a phenomenon known as resonance and can be extremely destructive in mechanical situations. Imagine if each spring bounce amplified the load by only 10% each rotation. It does not take long to go ballistic .

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Bermuda
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Fuzzy thanks.

    It's a honey extractor not a washing machine. Do you want your extractor shouting off every time you have an unbalanced load.
    I thought the main point of the casters was to make a small extractor easy to move around? If you don't intend to move it why not just bolt it down.
    I haven't heard of anyone breaking an extractor because it was bolted to the ground,well properly anyway. I mean isn't that how Maxant and Dandant engineered it to work in the first place and why they use all that extra metal and those huge bearings thingy-s???
    When they figure a way to spring suspend the drum of a honey extractor and end everyone's bolt down blues I'm sure they will let you know Roland. Of curse that would be more parts to replace.s
    “The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory.”

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,236

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Bermybee,

    As I stated earlier, the imbalanced load is energy. The casters convert the energy into motion. If the machine is hard mounted, the imbalance energy is still there and it is converted into HEAT in the bearings and grease thus shorting the life of the bearings.

    I suspect, but may not live long enough to prove it, that the bearings in my "castered" extractor will never wear out.

    If you want to hard mount go ahead -- it's your machine.

    Regards -- Fuzzy

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gilmer,TX USA
    Posts
    1,830

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Wooden base, have one or 2 guys stand on the base. What we do every year.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ayer, Massachusetts
    Posts
    752

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    www.maxantindustries.com
    American made Honey Processing Equipment "Built to last a lifetime"

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,655

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    I repaired a large 70 frame extractor that was bolted to the floor, and run for extended periods unbalanced, The Stainless steel fatigued and cracked. I can see how casters, or better yet, linear ways, would allow motion in the extractor and lessen bearing wear and material fatigue.


    Maxant - good idea, but I am talking of springs in the other axis, horizontal, not vertical.

    Fuzzy - I an aware of the terrible destruction that can be done with resonance, and have witnessed the results of attaining harmonics. I have no fear that that will happen in this situation. I will have to do a little research and experimentation. Do I get an "attaboy" if I can make a control that measures the imbalance, and retards the rate of speed increase in proportion to the level of imbalance? In other words, is she starts a shaking, it holds that speed until the shaking goes away.

    Roland

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Issaquah,WA,USA
    Posts
    2,344

    Default Re: Preventing an extractor from walking?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAXANT View Post
    Nice casters. But, Your Price: (not incl. options) $396.01 EA

    I am all about super charging my Extractor but, three casters are the price of the extractor. Tim Taylor and me have a lot in common "more power" except my stuff does not blow up on me.

    http://crowncasters.4casters.com/Cat...2/Default.aspx

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