My two weeks with Michael Palmer

[Michael Palmer]

Great, I was wondering how he got those half-sized frames drawn out? I take it those blocks in the middle are for support. Would you mind explaining a little please. Thanks, Adrian.

first time, I cut brood comb on my table saw to fit the frames. Held in frames with support pins. Place in center of broodnest of strong colonies. Harvesed brood and bees when cells were ready.

Now I winter the mating nucs and place empty boxe of mating nuc combs over strong overwintered mating nucs. Bees draw foundation well at Dandelion and queen lay...filling combs with brood.

[Michael Palmer]

"What does he do for queens for those nuc's??"

Just wondering what his source for queens in April is. I was curious if he uses his overwintered queens from last year for the nuc's? Is April nice enough to raise his own '10 queens for these nuc's? Or does he bring in outside genetics from other queen producers for these April - May nuc's? Or do the nuc's raise their own queens? Just wondering.

Winevines is correct. Think of nucs as queens not future production colonies. I raise the queens in July and winter them in nucs. That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. This is actually a great place to raise quality queens. Great nutrition out there for the bees during our short summer. Think sustainable beekeeping.

[Barry]

Depends on who's askin'. Barry the Beekeeper or Barry The Moderator :-)

When I visit you, the moderator stays at home. We could talk anyway we want to.

[Michael Bush]

Apparently he's not too picky. He let me. I'm not sure we were much help, but we learned a lot and the company was great.

[devdog108]

[QUOTE=Michael Palmer;537978] That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. QUOTE]

Now, being from the "South" has some pride involved.....lol... May i ask you to elaborate on what you said here. I take no offense because there are some serious idiots here, but, there are some good, decent people trying to do a good job....Is it as bad as you make it sound?

[Michael Palmer]

[QUOTE=devdog108;538158]

That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. QUOTE]

Now, being from the "South" has some pride involved.....lol... May i ask you to elaborate on what you said here. I take no offense because there are some serious idiots here, but, there are some good, decent people trying to do a good job....Is it as bad as you make it sound?

Yeah, I apologize. But, how else can I say it? The packages and queens sent up this way are a joke. No, worse. They're a rip-off. Full of varroa and SHB. Most fail before winter, and the rest don't make the following May.

I address many local bee clubs in the Northeast. The talk is all about getting away from "Southern" bees. Weaning their members off packages that are doomed to fail here.

Of course there are good, decent, hard working folks in the South, doing a the best job they can. Same everywhere. But someone isn't doing their job.

So, help me out Devdog. How would you address the issue and not offend anyone.

[Buffalolick]

I guess you have to quantify "full of varroa and SHB". Then you have to decide if you want treatment free bees or not.

Not claiming to have an answer here..just an observation. People buy southern packages and queens because of timing..IMHO

It's a legitimate marketable advantage...just as locally raised nucs are...you pays yer $ you takes yer chances

[fatscher]

I guess you have to quantify "full of varroa and SHB". Then you have to decide if you want treatment free bees or not.

I don't think quantifying the recent poor quality from down south would be too difficult. Just count the complaints. Feedback from some of Vermont's student beekeepers this year is tale-telling in itself. Our own club newbies here in Virginia are experiencing problems rather quickly too. For example, one student received a Georgia package, and within one week he had laying workers, documented by his photography (he actually photo'd a worker laying in a cell). It sounds to me that when the package was shaken, those hives had been queenless for some time. And placing a queen with the laying worker package was like fighting a forest fire with a water pistol.

I'm southern born and bred, so I have "pride" too, but the fact remains, if you tally and quantify the complaints of package recipients, many people feel they're getting ripped off. The genetics don't seem to be the priority down south---volume and production is. Debbie Delaney of U of Delaware can attest to the shallow gene pool of Georgia Italians, and even Dann Purvis will tell you that the southern bees are "dead men walking." Just say no to southern packages (until the genetics improve).

[Robbo]

Cool stories nd piccies there - Thats something I would like to visit the states and do in the next few years

[devdog108]

Well, lets not mistake the problems at all. Like I said, I take no offense. I think the demand and timing is outwaying the beeks abilities to provide good bees IMHO. The weather this year made it worse. I, for one, rule for treatment free bees. I have my reasoning, and I am NOT going to debate this with anyone...again. Its been beat to death......so if anyone gets angry, then so be it.....you will be ok. I agree that you need your own survivor stock. I am "really" new the beekeeping so I can't give you an answer, BUT, i can tell you that my bees do have varroa, and they do have a few SHB, but to this point, they have handles it themselves. it is my belief that it will be inevitable Micheal that they make it to you, as they have made it all over thus far. Funny thing.....Ga Ap law says you "have" to treat....so how is it that Ga is providing all of the issues? Are they not enforcing their laws, or are the inspectors buddies? I talked to 2 different package providers that are treatment free...completely, and I have 3 Nucs between them. One has superceded its queen and the others are working hard..but, they told the Inspector that they are treatment free, and have been, and the inspector says nothing. How many of you have seen the strips in your packages or Nucs coming from ga, because according to Ga law, they are to have them in you package or Nuc.....If you read around the forums, there seems to be a lot of absconding, superceding, and die-offs all over the US. Beeks, it seems to me, are having a higher failure rate all over. The problem doesn't stem from just the south. How did the south get them? We get a lot of the blame for something that happened to us as well....let's not forget that. And we have to be dang careful not to generalize...

[Keith Jarrett]

" Michael's B&B " That's bed & bee's. Hey I see $$$$ new business.
Two day stay $.... four day stay $$ or the whole week $$$$$.

Any how , what a nice heart felt story here. Sure is nice to read something like this, than the newspaper.

[devdog108]

Just say no to southern packages (until the genetics improve).

See, the problem is that i can find just as many happy customers as well. Again, this is not a pride issue, but in reality, Buffalolick had it right. Unlike you guys further up, we have the perfect climate for SHB ......So how is this our fault? I do not think that the southern breeders are as inbred as you make it seem. Go visit FBM and tell me he doesnt have good Nucs and very diverse diverse genetics..... He was the one telling me how to buy queens and when and from where to keep that from happening. One of his nucs i purchased drew 3 frames of new wax almost completely overnight......I bought a 3 lb package from H&L last year, They overwintered ina single deep even though they had a medium to move to.....and this was the hive i have made 5 splits from because they were so strong. Each of those splits is 2 med deep now and working on their first supers from middle March. Got 2 Nucs From Barnett Apiaries and they are going gang busters.....

It's really not a debate either way...and I guess its hard no matter how you look at it, and i am positive their are some total sham package sellers out there that are just "selling bees"......but you just cannot say that as a whole...thats my only point.

[devdog108]

Oh and BTW, i do think you need to be buying northern packages and Nucs. The bees are better acclimated to your climate differences....

[fatscher]

I'm getting off topic. My apologies, this is turning into a southern package vs. northern nucs debate, but I want to hit on several points here.

But first, the important things. Your moniker sounds like you're a Marine. I'm USAF (retired) and I've never met a Marine I didn't like. Contrast, I've met several AF guys I just didn't like. Semper Fi, my friend, I have a soft spot in my heart for leathernecks and jarheads in all shapes and sizes...rah!

Funny thing.....Ga Ap law says you "have" to treat....so how is it that Ga is providing all of the issues? Are they not enforcing their laws, or are the inspectors buddies?

I don't think treatment (or not) is the real issue, unless you're talking SHB only. My limited experience seems to be the genetics. The gene pool seems to be stressed and I'm not clear why, other than I'd suppose that Hardeman, Wilbanks and others are more focused on getting volume out the door. My guess is that the focus is not on bringing in diversity in genetics (pertaining to varroa). I am not familiar with FBM's operation on genetic diversity. I bet his packages (if he sells them) may not have the types of problems we're seeing from the big name producers.

See, the problem is that i can find just as many happy customers as well. ... Unlike you guys further up, we have the perfect climate for SHB ......So how is this our fault? I do not think that the southern breeders are as inbred as you make it seem. Go visit FBM and tell me he doesnt have good Nucs and very diverse diverse genetics..... It's really not a debate either way...and I guess its hard no matter how you look at it, and i am positive their are some total sham package sellers out there that are just "selling bees"......but you just cannot say that as a whole...thats my only point. ?

You're right. It's not fair to generalize. I will say that, according to some e-mails I had seen, until this year, I don't think the entire state of Vermont had ever seen a hive beetle, until a Georgia package got "imported" there. You're right, it's not your fault. It's the package customers' fault for bringing them there. Also, there are many many people around my area of Virginia that are VERY unhappy with what came out of Wilbanks Apiaries the past 2-3 years. It's sad to spend almost $100 to see your money go down the drain within a few weeks. Is it the new beekeepers fault? Maybe they cannot manage the colony? A refund is just not possible. When I sell my nucs to students here, or Mike Palmer sells his to customers in Vermont, the worse problem is they might swarm, but they don't die in the 1st month they're hived. Contrast, in March this year I got a package from Hardeman, for the purpose of drawing mating nuc frames. They're doing well, knock on wood, after 2 months, feisty bees and I like that quality, no problems there. But there is a general trend of dissatisfaction with the quality coming out of the Empire State--and I'm not talking New York. We Virginians call ourselves "Southerners" too, but you should hear the groan from the audience at our state meetings whenever the term "Georgia or southern package" is said aloud. I don't think it's a conspiracy. But it is definitely a negative perception. And Dann Purvis is no dummy...he's very in-tuned to what's out there in the bee genetic world. I tend to think he knows what he's talking about when he says southern bees are "dead men walking."

i do think you need to be buying northern packages and Nucs. The bees are better acclimated to your climate differences.... ?

Maybe. I lived in Warner Robins, Georgia for 4 years in the Air Force. It is definitely warmer there, but north GA, around Resaca, is an almost identical climate and temperature as northern Virginia. Funny when you cross the Pennsylvania border, though, the temp drops about 30 degrees.

[devdog108]

Ha haha...Ill let you go, even if you are AF...LOL. I think I need say hey Mike, if i ever get a chance to come by, can I still.....I am REALLY good at listneing and following directions....sometimes...LOL. And we need to hammer the southern package providers that are your big namers if they are giving you bad bees or bad genetics. I have heard of the Purvis Bros. and their reputation and if it is what he says it is, then i would be ever inclined to believe him. I have heard nothing but good coming from Skinners package buyers and he has even followed up with them from what I am hearing. Barnett and FBM as well as H&L did me well, and I know that the MP buyers will all be happy. Maybe we just need to start going back to the little guys and stop trying to buy in bulk. I don't have a whole lot that i call mine, but as my wife, who hates my new hobby(all she sees in the money I spend, not the fun i have) there is a lot of pride involved with having good bees. I posted a poll, now if people would only answer the thing. I know i have heard a lot of problems like supercedures, lots of absconding, weak packages and such. I liked the idea of queen swapping if you could find someone you could trust. Oh and something about that Mason Dixon Line makes it a lot colder...LOL. i married a native Buffalonian and a Marine.

[winevines]

" Michael's B&B " That's bed & bee's. Hey I see $$$$ new business. Two day stay $.... four day stay $$ or the whole week $$$$$.

Great idea.........but it reminds me of a sign I once saw at the auto mechanic? $75 an hour if you drop off, $100 hour if you watch, $150 an hour if you help!

[winevines]

I don't think quantifying the recent poor quality from down south would be too difficult. Just count the complaints.

Our own local bee forum (Virginia) and others in neighboring Maryland has seen several posts on packages superseding their queens in the first month

[BEES4U]

Nice photos.
Who is your supplier for the cardboard nucs?
Ernie

[winevines]

Wax coated cardboard are available from Brushy, but MP probably has another source for buying a large quantity.

[habutti]

I got my supply earlier from Dadant, they carry them as well!