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Do bees have a conscience?

7K views 31 replies 17 participants last post by  devdog108 
#1 ·
Well, do they? Is it your opinion or is there evidence to prove it's a fact?

an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior: he had a guilty conscience about his desires | Ben was suffering a pang of conscience.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Bees do not have a brain, in the sense that we have a brain. They have two small collections of nerve cells located above and below their esophagus (Supraesophageal ganglia and subesophageal ganglia). These serve as information 'routing centers' - there is very little 'interpretation' of information.

The ganglia are positioned close to the structures that primarily collect information (eyes, antenna) and are most important for interacting with their environment (mandibles, tongue). There are smaller collections of ganglia at the base of the legs and wings, which function in the same way - coordination of movement.

Bees do not have emotions because bees do not produce the chemicals responsible for emotions - namely serotonin - nor do they have the brain structures required for interpreting emotions.

The best way to explain their behavior is that of a positive/negative feedback machine. Bees detect organic molecules, either produced by the queen, the brood, other bees, from products brought in from outside (nectar/pollen), etc. They are hardwired to respond, either in a positive (produce more of the behavior) or negative (reduce the behavior) way to particular levels of these chemicals. Chemical threshold levels vary by chemical and even by life stage of the bee.

For instance, workers do not 'decide' to not lay eggs when there is a queen present. The queen produces high levels of hormones and pheromones that are associated with the production of eggs. Workers detect these pheromones and hormones, which can physically enter their body by binding to their antenna and being actively transported to into their hemolymph. The presence of high levels of these hormones physiologically suppresses the development of the worker's reproductive organs and interferes with the production of eggs. In a sense, workers are 'physically' prevented from developing and laying eggs. This is negative feedback (increased levels of queen pheromones/hormones results in decreased levels of worker reproductive activity).

This is also why you can be queenless with open brood without developing laying workers - the brood pheromone suppresses reproductive development as well.

Conversely, when the queen is gone - pheromones drop. Workers don't 'decide' either individually or collectively to lay eggs - in the absence of physiological hormonal suppression, some workers who may be individually more sensitive to the pheromones detect their absence first. Without the pheromones to suppress the activation and development of their reproductive organs, their eggs develop and then they HAVE to lay eggs. Once they begin, they start producing the pheromones that suppress egg development and laying in other workers. This is why you usually get several laying workers in a hive.

There is no 'conscious' as we know it. Larry Connor has written several good articles on the coordination of behavior in the hive through chemical processes in the last few issues of Bee Culture. I think in one issue he wrote about the regulation of water collection - it is a classic example of positive feedback behavior regulation based upon how quickly a forager is unloaded at the hive entrance.
 
#8 ·
Bees do not have emotions because bees do not produce the chemicals responsible for emotions - namely serotonin - nor do they have the brain structures required for interpreting emotions.
Hmm. What about dopamine?


Honey bee queens produce a sophisticated array of chemical signals (pheromones) that influence both the behavior and physiology of their nest mates.

Queen pheromone modulates brain dopamine function in worker honey bees
Kyle T. Beggs
 
#4 ·
Interesting.
The size of a brain probably does not matter (especially since no one even understands how the brain does what it does). Think of it. A mass of "nerves" and fluid that allows us to think, reason, speak, eat, breath, - everything - (*cough* could that be more evidence).

No bees do not have a conscience. In Job God says he withheld reasoning (understanding/wisdom) from other life.
 
#5 ·
In Job God says he withheld reasoning (understanding/wisdom) from other life.
I have a Lhasa Apso who would strongly take issue with this quote. But then, they're supposed to be reincarnated Buddhist monks, so I suppose the point might still apply. ;)

Actually, there have been numerous studies indicating that higher mammals & some birds do indeed have the ability to think, analyze, and apply novel solutions to problems they have never encountered before. Most recently making the rounds is YouTube of rooks in England and a complex series of tasks.

But the bees, sadly no. While their's is a fascinating and complex society, it is primarily behavioral based.
 
#7 ·
Two words: Public Schools. They are now mostly teaching to take tests, not the development of critical thinking skills.

Of course the majority of animal intelligence is inferior to human, but take a look at those vids with the rooks. No one showed them a thing. And their cleverness is not new--ven Aesop wrote about them.

It is precisely because we are human that we lean toward anthropomorphic behavior ourselves.
 
#9 ·
Actually, serotonin and other chemicals were detected in bee brains years ago:

Effects of stress, age, season, and source colony on levels of octopamine, dopamine and serotonin in the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) brain

JW Harris, J Woodring - Journal of Insect Physiology, 1992

The effects of environmental and genetic factors on levels of octopamine, dopamine and serotonin in brains from worker honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) were measured using high-performance liquid chromatography with electrochemical detection
 
#13 ·
People have done experiments with mammals showing ethical behavior, if that's what you are getting at when you say "conscience."

Do bees experience "right and wrong" and make choices based on that sense?

I think even if we set up an experiment and demonstrated a sense of right and wrong in behavior, either between bees in a colony, bees between colonies, or community colony interaction, there would be the criticism that it isn't a conscious choice, but rather just "programming."
 
#14 ·
Dopamine (DA) is involved in a large variety of physiological and behavioural processes in animals ranging from mollusk to mammals. [It] plays a critical role in cognition and emotion, and the last decade has seen a large increase in the experimental evidence for a role in both synaptic plasticity and memory processes … invertebrate DA receptors, AmDOP1 from Apis mellifera (Mustard et al. 2003) and DOP-1 from Caenorhabditis elegans (Sanyal et al. 2004) possess strong constitutive activity.

An aplysia dopamine1-like receptor: molecular and functional characterization
Demian Barbas. Journal of Neurochemistry, 2006, 96, 414–427
See my article in the current American Bee Journal. It is going to run for three consecutive issues and deals with the chemical communication that regulates hive behavior.
 
#16 ·
Peter,

I will make sure to see the article. I was not aware that dopamine was that involved in emotion, but does that statement refer to humans only or all animals where dopamine is present?

Additionally, often structures and molecules that are present in different organisms do not always perform the same function or have the same effect. Is there information available that indicates the specific role that dopamine plays in honeybees. Also, is it secreted in proportionally significant amounts to even produce emotion?

Thanks in advance for the info.

mike
 
#15 ·
Well put Mike S. As you can tell from my profile, I'm a Believer. But as many times as I've been "around the block," I am confident that God is going to do what God is going to do (or wants to do) irrespective of the position of various believers, who frequently contradict each other anyway.

So, do bees have a conscience? Are we talking about that which is encased in the grey matter called the brain, or that which takes place in the synapses and electrical impulses? We cannot quantify and identify a soul. Although some have weighed a human body immediately before death, and immediately after death, and found a difference in the amount of ounces, proclaiming those ounces represent the departed soul. Or was it the conscience that departed?

Is it conscience, or consciousness, that separates animals, including humans, from plants? While I readily affirm that humans have a conscience and a soul, I am not so readily to affirm that animals, including honey bees, do not have a consciousness about them. Conscience implies an ability to discern between right and wrong, to make value judgments. If a bee colony is a superorganism, is its conscience found in the individual, or in the group?

I think we have moved from the scientific realm into the philosophical realm. And what we state or affirm are more matters of faith, or belief, rather than solid knowledge. I could be wrong, have been before, will be again. But personally I will affirm that any sentient being, insect, animal, or human, has a conscience, or at least a consciousness of its reality. Though it most certainly is not as well developed or defined as the human. And probably, not being human, operates on a different plane than human conscience or consciousness.
FWIW :popcorn:
Regards,
Steven
 
#22 ·
> I think that the anthropomorphosis of animals is one of the primary issues that clouds general understanding.

Sure, but if we are going to understand the consciousness of bees, we have to have a theory of it. We cannot understand consciousness directly, not theirs, not yours, not mine. We can only hope to construct a working model of it.

I heard a guy say he had been married so long, he now knows that he has no idea what his wife is thinking. But we guess. There are several sorts of guesses.

1. There are guesses where we project what we want to see.

2. We guess based upon what we think we know.

3. Scientifically informed guesses (hypotheses).

Our best guess is that there are levels of consciousness, ranging from an amoeba that is conscious of temperature, on up to you, who are conscious of me typing and what I mean by this.

These levels are supported by the levels of genomic structure, neurological structure, analogous chemistry, etc. It is no far stretch to say that a a plant senses light. They move to light. They don't see it.

We know what bees can see, what they can smell, what they react to, what the can remember. In the most rudimentary sense, you can say that when a bee is returning to its hive from a mile away:

she is thinking about where it needs to go and how to get there, what the route looks like, smells like, and she will recognize her own home when she gets there. This is her map of the world
 
#23 ·
application of the idea of a conscience would require that bees have some sort of moral code that guides their behavior. So, are AHB more immoral than purebred, say, Italian Honeybees? Does their aggressive defensive behavior imply a lack of morals, and therefore a less discriminating conscience?

Do bee that sting and die learn anything from that process? Like, "Dang! I wish I hadn't done that!"
 
#24 ·
Quote from StevenG:
Is it conscience, or consciousness, that separates animals, including humans, from plants? While I readily affirm that humans have a conscience and a soul, I am not so readily to affirm that animals, including honey bees, do not have a consciousness about them. Conscience implies an ability to discern between right and wrong, to make value judgments. If a bee colony is a superorganism, is its conscience found in the individual, or in the group?

Has anybody out there read
"The Secret Life of PLants" by Peter Tompkins & Christopher Bird?

I once was stung by a bee near my ear and I could hear it scream.... Not the same as a conscience but more of consciousness? So with consciousness do they feel pain?
 
#26 ·
The origional question asked was a valid one .....sorry if it didn't appease you. Most of the questions about beeking have been asked OVER AND OVER AND OVER.....but every once and a while we get a doozy.....some have been taken beyond crazy i agree, but nevertheless, its a new question and I for one will take it.
 
#28 ·
As long as we are supposing that we know everything about every other living creature and that every other living creature simply must do things the way humans do, our vanity can stay intact.

some of the 'opinions' expressed here are interesting, others are typical.

My own thought on the matter is that a bee or any other creature that isn't human may very well have a conscience as well as a conscious that may not work the same as it does in humans. We'll never truly know until we have first hand experience of being said bee or creature.

interesting theories though.

Big Bear
 
#32 ·
It might also have second thoughts before stinging you, if its conscience guided its actions.
Well, who's to say that butting of that one bee is NOT saying that? It very well could be...we don't know. If one bee persists more than another...then why do they persist? It you barely sqeeze a bee, like on a frame, why does it attack, reactionary or is it because it hurts? I would think because it hurts, but these are my thoughts....no religeon or science involved. I know what i believe, and there isn't anyone on this forum that can change that....thats why i leave it out. I wouldn't and won't judge others for their beliefs even though they are wrong...OK, IT WAS A JOKE!!!!
 
#30 ·
MikeJ, my comments were certainly not directed at you, nor at anyone in particular, but everyone in general. For instance, in my city of ca. 18,000 there are 29 different denominations. That was my point, we Christians cannot agree on everything. My suspicion is, since God gave us the duck-billed platypus, He simply must have a sense of humor. (I tell my kids that creature was made with "left over parts" :D)
Regards,
Steven
 
#31 · (Edited)
Instinctive animals with no, and i mean NO evidence ever offered that they have a clue like you would like to believe they do! Why would an animal commit suicide to defend the hive or because its trapped in your pant leg? Let me guess, because their naturally heroic! Ill grant you that somethings going on with how they can communicate pollen areas or nectars areas to their fello bees but do think their saying, hey, Hank, theres one hell of a patch of clover over by Sues house? Is there a science fiction section on this forum to send this too? Or apparently, a religious section, since it seems to have wondered in that direction to!
 
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