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  1. #41
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Viruses were first identified as a new class of pathogens infecting honey bees when a US scientist, Dr. White, discovered that a filterable agent from diseased bee larvae could cause sacbrood disease in the honey bee ( White, 1913 ). Since then, at least 18 viruses have been reported to infect honey bees worldwide.

    Although bee viruses usually persist as inapparent infections and cause no overt signs of disease, they can dramatically affect honey bee health and shorten the lives of infected bees under certain conditions. The detection of several bee viruses in varroa mites indicates the possible role of varroa mites as vectors in the transmission of viruses among honey bees.

    Hygienic behavior is characterized by the rapid detection of diseased and dead brood, uncapping of the brood cell, and removal of the affected brood by worker bees. The hygienic behavior of worker bees is an important aspect of the honey bee’s immunity and has been shown to be effective against American foulbrood, chalkbrood, nosema, and varroa mites in colonies. In addition, hygienic activity has been shown to be an effective defensive strategy against virus infections in honey bees.

    Honey Bee Viruses
    Yan Ping Chen
    Perhaps a study needs to be made which shows the effect of hygienic bees on viral loads.

  2. #42

    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    WLC, thank you for agreeing with me.

    And yes, sometimes money is an issue becasue some tools useful in lab science is not cheap.

    What it takes to be a scientist is the right state of mind and attitude.

    sometimes, there are situations where what I refer to as 'field scientists' (which by large part, would be where the beek would fall in) making observations, documenting results, consequences and stimuli need to cooperate with 'lab' scientists who have the resources for the in depth testing of matter and data.

    This kind of collaboration between different types of scientists can very much further the understanding of the world we are living in.

    Big Bear
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Cam makes a valid point. The average beekeeper is not going to do work like this:

    Individual honey bee Apis mellifera L. queens were examined for the presence of six honey bee viruses including acute bee paralysis virus, chronic bee paralysis virus, black queen cell virus, deformed wing virus, Kashmir bee virus, and sacbrood virus. All viruses, except ABPV, were detected in the samples. Among queens examined for virus infections, 93% had multiple virus infections. The detection of viruses in queens raises the possibility of a vertical transmission pathway wherein infected queens can pass virus through their eggs to their offspring.

    Twenty-nine queens from honey bee colonies maintained in Beltsville, MD and Sapelo Island, GA were used in this study. Queens from GA were collected in centrifuge tubes on dry ice and shipped overnight to MD for analyses. Total RNA was extracted from individual queens using an RNA isolation kit (TRIzol; Invitrogen; Carlsbad, CA)

    Detection of multiple viruses in queens of the honey bee Apis mellifera L. 2005. Yanping Chen

  4. #44

    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Just becasue they choose not to, doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so.

    To do or not to do is a choice, not a limitation.

    Big Bear
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Hey, Bone.

    You got any more popcorn... I'm all out.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  6. #46
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    "Cam makes a valid point. The average beekeeper is not going to do work like this:"

    "Just becasue they choose not to, doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so. To do or not to do is a choice, not a limitation."

    You do realize that virus tests strips are commonly used in horticulture and other fields?

    Petition those folks to come up with tests strips for bee viruses, pests, and pathogens.

    http://www.gopetition.com/

  7. #47
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Like it or not, we live in a globalized environment, which means more exotic diseases, and more new combinations of diseases.

    Bernard Vallat, Director General of the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) made the statement “As a result of globalisation and climate change we are currently facing an unprecedented worldwide impact of emerging and re-emerging animal diseases and zoonoses (animal diseases transmissible to humans)”. To understand this we need to look at a few of the more recent emerging diseases.

    One of the recent diseases to emerge is a paramyxovirus called Hendra virus that first occurred near Brisbane in Australia in 1994, affecting horses with respiratory and nervous symptoms and rapidly killing them and a few of the people that came into contact with them. The question is why are so many of these diseases emerging now?

    The challenge, apart from the obvious need to reduce pollution, is to recognise the interaction between non-infectious and infectious emerging diseases and to understand the effect and role that non-infectious diseases play. For example, many non-infectious diseases are now known to affect the immune system, thus predisposing animals and people to infectious diseases that may previously not have been a threat.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    In my opinion, one of the chief obstacles, and I see this here at BeeSource on almost a daily basis, is a deep distrust of scientific researchers. I don't really know why this should be so pervasive in the beekeeping community, as most of the truly important discoveries that we beekeepers benefit from have been made by scientists.

    Follow the money trail. Most 'scientific researchers' get their funding from corporations, including chemical corporations - via the Federal Government as a middleman.

    For example, corporations lobby the Federal government to do their bidding. The Federal government provides student loans for folks to go to college. This has allowed colleges to bid up the price of tuition, as they know students have guaranteed access to student loans. This in turn gives colleges more money to conduct 'research' doing studies that aren't profitable. You already touched on that though, as you pointed out that it is entrepreneurs that find solutions.

    If you haven't met Dennis vanEngelsdorp or Maryann Frazier,

    They are working on our problems.


    I did a google search on them, and it says they work for Penn State, which collects tuition from students receiving Federal loans from the Federal government, which does the bidding of the lobbyists...

    Follow the money trail, and you see who they are really working for. That discredits them in my eyes. How can they really be working on our problems, when they have dirty money in their wallets?

    Show me an entrepreneur who is a scientist, (who earns their pay by applying their research) and I'd be interested in their research findings. For example, Nutra-Bee and Global Patties were both developed by beekeepers who make their money by feeding those supplements to their bees. I believe you will get more bang for your buck with their supplements than by going with a patty devised with government funded research.

    Science is about keeping an open mind.

    But scientific research is NOT about keeping an open mind. It is about looking to prove or disprove a theory, and trying to eliminate everything else from the equation. Science doesn't like intangibles and variables.

    One of the things we do on a weekly basis is to read a recent paper in our field and try to find all the faults with it. It is customary to try to shoot holes in a scientific hypothesis. We do this to each other and to our own theories. If the theory holds up under fire, it's a good one. If it doesn't it either needs to be revised or pitched out.

    And you wonder why BeeSource folks have a distrust of scientists. Even you and your peers distrust scientists. If you trusted them, you wouldn't be trying to shoot holes in their findings. Yet you can't understand our distrust of scientists when we shoot holes in their findings too.

    You know, there are hardly any scientists on these bee forums.

    I disagree. I don't know any beekeepers on bee forums who are not scientists. Everyone is trying to figure out what works best for them.

    What you don't seem to find as many of is armchair expert scientists with a college degree and connected to corporate and government money. They are quickly exposed though, as they are not trying to find what works best for their own bees - but they want to tell you what is best for your bees.

    Because of the firestorm that always ensues when they open their mouths.


    Why is there a firestorm? Because they are not trying to find what works best for their bees - they are trying to tell you what is best for your bees. See, they don't actually believe/have faith in what they report. They won't put their money where their mouth is, but they want you to use your money to test their theories.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Easy, Boy!

    In an ideal beekeepers' world...

    ... ...

    there would be enough good locations for all of us.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Those danged 'eggheads'. Always poking their nose where it don't belong.

    Where were we...

    The reference from COLOSS is coming from the european anti-agrochemical mindset.

    That's the way they think.

    Unfortunately, they've already shown a bias to the problem at hand.

    My own personal bias is this: you introduce the honeybee to north america, where it is a nonnative/invasive; then you introduce mites and beetles, also nonnative; and a host of viruses and other pathogens; all of which have had a massive impact on native insect species.

    Then you throw stones?

    Do you see how when you take a different perspective, it looks like the pot is calling the kettle black?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    A scientist is somebody who does science.

    It is difficult for people not trained in science to learn to think like a scientist -- I've seen hundreds of "experiments" that were worse than useless. For example, trying small cell foundation one year after a horrible experience with varroa does not demonstrate whether or not small cell foundation affects varroa infestation!

    The average beekeeper simply isn't used to isolating variables -- something that often requires using unprofitable methods. Good statistical analysis is also very complex -- how many are prepared to legitimately determine if their results are statistically significant?

    Given these difficulties, even when a great beekeeper makes a huge effort to design and execute a scientific experiment (a lot of time and effort WAS put into the experiment design right?) the experiment often doesn't show what was intended, the conclusions they draw are often much too strong, and the experiment is often impossible to reproduce given the role of weather and a lack of detailed observations.

    I am not in any way implying that science cannot be done by beekeepers without doctorates! It's just a LOT of work, and most people are conditioned to draw conclusions based on even weak correlations so people are prone to thinking they've "proven" something even if they haven't.

    This suggests to me both why scientists tend to doubt the reports of commercial or amateur beekeepers and why beekeepers see scientists as elitist. While scientists may doubt some of the things reported as unquestionable truth by keepers, their ultimate goal is to advance our understanding of bees and find ways to assist beekeepers with some complex problems. While the limited findings of careful scientific experiments will be helpful in many situations, they won't replace the every-day observations of hundreds of thousands of hives by professional beekeepers.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    I believe that a great deal of the animosity tword "scientists" is actually a reaction to those claiming to be scientist, but not performing in accordance to the scientific method. As stated by others, when money gets involved, the "true" and "Open minded" ways get pushed aside. It is when these people hide behind the cloak of scientific credibility to push their agenda that resentment swells.
    I enjoy watching the programs that show our best beekeeping scientists in pure white bee suits, with unstained smokers, and hive tools with paint still on them, explain how they are SO busy looking for a cause of CCD. They explain that a hive that has CCD will be empty, as they are opening a hive with bees in it. What is wrong with this picture????

    On another occasion, I drove out of state to hear a lecture at Fermilab on why the bees where dying by a noted Scientist. At the end of the lecture, it was obvious this person had no clues, only reporting where and how bees where dying. I had previously arranged to meet with this individual after the lecture. At that time, I explained that we had seen an order of magnitude change(for the better) in wintering and honey production. "That's nice" was the reply. I then presented an article from a peer review journal that I wished to share. It was refused. A year later, this individual published a new "breakthru" article, which confirmed everything I was attempting to present.

    Peter said:
    The whole CCD thing started when a Pennsylvania beekeeper contacted a Pennsylvania scientist, looking for help. The researcher took him seriously and enlisted the aid of countless other scientists, and have produced the large body of work on CCD.

    What year was this?
    Do we have any solution to the problem?
    Have they bothered to call me when presented with my solution?


    Peter, I once considered myself trained in the scientific method. I was taught to look up to those in positions of education. After being routinely snubbed, and having better luck getting my hands dirty in the hives, I have lost much respect for Academia(except for one man at Nebraska with dirty hands).

    I think our problems could get resolved alot faster if the "scientists" acted more scientific(just the facts), and realized that we beekeepers may know the inside of a hive better than they. I am sure us beekeepers must change also, but ????

    This is not a personal attach, just an attempt to explain my thoughts and experiences.

    Roland the frustrated.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    For example, trying small cell foundation one year after a horrible experience with varroa does not demonstrate whether or not small cell foundation affects varroa infestation!
    Why not? If it won't work in a year, when will it work? If the bees are dead after the trial, what will you try it on?

    Fumigants work in days. They kill the varroa and the hive survives. If you are saying that it takes years for the small cell to work, what good is that? The bees die in the meantime.

    To my way of thinking, if there is no effect during the brood rearing period over one season, then that is sufficient to show that there is no effect. This has been shown by more than a half dozen studies done all over the world.

    No scientific study has shown any effect except those done in Brazil with African bees, where varroa mite isn't really a problem anyway.

    The brood cycle in temperate climates is what we are concerned about, not tropical or subtropical regions. Plenty of evidence to show that bees and mites can coexist in milder climates.

    In the temperate zone, there is a huge peak population followed by a rapid decline in population in the fall. This is when varroa destroy hives around here.

    If your method or technique can't prevent that, what good is it?

  14. #54
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    OK, so one of the complaints we here most often is that scientists are funded by industry so they can't be unbiased. I have been trying to generate support for beekeeper funded scientific work which would focus on your problems and bring solutions back to you. It would have to be funded by you. How about that? If you were paying the scientists to work on your problems, would that change the dynamic?

  15. #55
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    "OK, so one of the complaints we here most often is that scientists are funded by industry so they can't be unbiased. I have been trying to generate support for beekeeper funded scientific work which would focus on your problems and bring solutions back to you. It would have to be funded by you. How about that? If you were paying the scientists to work on your problems, would that change the dynamic? "

    Not for those who already have their minds made up.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    [QUOTE=camero7;532727
    for those who already have their minds made up.[/QUOTE]

    Shoot.... after following this thread I think I've lost my mind.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  17. #57
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    To my way of thinking, if there is no effect during the brood rearing period over one season, then that is sufficient to show that there is no effect. This has been shown by more than a half dozen studies done all over the world.
    Wow. So you are dismissing every possible solution to varroa that might take more than just one brood season to take effect? I'm afraid I don't consider that to be very scientifically open-minded (or even logical) in terms of searching for solutions, 'half a dozen studies' or not.
    A cure for mites (as in using a miticide to effect an immediate killing but temporary reduction of mites) is sometimes not the same thing as a solution, which might entail employing a combination of different ways of doing things. Solutions are sometimes not as obvious and immediate as cures. It seems to me that by their very nature some solutions would logically take more than one season to produce good results.
    Last edited by Omie; 05-03-2010 at 12:06 PM.
    The little bee returns with evening's gloom,
    To join her comrades in the braided hive... -Tennyson

  18. #58
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Why not? If it won't work in a year, when will it work? If the bees are dead after the trial, what will you try it on?
    Hrm, my point has been missed! The problem is not that trying it for a year is not long enough, the problem is that there is no control group -- comparing the performance of two hives one year with one method to the same two hives the next year with another method proves nothing.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Quote Originally Posted by Omie View Post
    Wow. So you are dismissing every possible solution to varroa that might take more than just one brood season to take effect?
    I am not dismissing anything. But seriously, I have seen hives go from no mites to tons of mites to dead in one season. If the technique doesn't work the first season, the hive is dead. There is no second season to follow it on. Is this hard to fathom?

  20. #60
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    Default Re: An ideal beekeepers' world

    Being scientifically open-minded does not require one to throw out fact-based intuition! If you could show that a method had a cumulative effect over multiple years with an appropriately designed experiment, I have little doubt that Peter would be surprised but not utterly incredulous. He might (as is appropriate in science) want to see the experiment independently reproduced to ensure that it wasn't some other variable that was unaccounted for that really caused the improvement, but I doubt he'd reject it without a second thought!

    What he's saying (as far as I can tell -- I'm not a mind-reader!) is that multiple studies of multiple methods have shown that a single year of brood rearing is generally enough to demonstrate efficacy of a method. Sure, some methods (certainly genetic manipulation!) will take longer, but varroa in particular breeds fast enough that they experience the majority of possible hive conditions (from nectar dearth to high-gear brood rearing etc...) in most years. Therefore, without some specific reasons (probably related to the details of a particular treatment?), an experiment over a single season with a sufficient number of hives, probably at more than one yard to avoid environmental anomalies, should show a result if the treatment is having an effect.
    Last edited by Barry; 05-03-2010 at 06:33 PM. Reason: excessive quoting

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