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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by rainesridgefarm View Post
    I used a high melt point parafin. I am not sure which one it was years ago
    Thanks for the info. Candlesupply.com has 163 degree melt point paraffin which is probably what I will try. Will let you know how it all turns out...

    http://cart.candlesupply.com/product...cat=295&page=1

    -fafrd

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Being in Ca, you will probably save on shipping by buying here.
    http://www.generalwax.com/wax/hurric..._Z4L1600P.html

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by loggermike View Post
    Being in Ca, you will probably save on shipping by buying here.
    http://www.generalwax.com/wax/hurric..._Z4L1600P.html
    Thanks loggermike. The shipping was much cheaper, more than enough to offset the CA state sals tax, and the delivery is also much qucker. The price difference between the 160 MP Paraffin ('Hurricane Wax') and the 150 MP Paraffin was significant enough (20%) that I decided to stic with the 150 MP (which shoul still be better than the Mann-Lake Paraffin which is apparently a low 120 MP Wax).

    Will let you know how it all turns out!

    -fafd

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    I used 2 parts beeswax and 1 part rosin (66% wax and 33% rosin) and cooked them a minium of 10 minutes (that's bubbling nicely at somewhere around 250 to 280 F). I had no problems with clumping. The wood is hot and the wax and rosin run off quickly.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I used 2 parts beeswax and 1 part rosin (66% wax and 33% rosin) and cooked them a minium of 10 minutes (that's bubbling nicely at somewhere around 250 to 280 F). I had no problems with clumping. The wood is hot and the wax and rosin run off quickly.
    Thanks Michael. Why do you use a higher ratio of Rosin? Have you ever tried a lower ratio?

    I don't know why I got such bad clumping - perhaps I did not wait long enough 'at temperature' for the rosin to dissolve - it was a sticky, clumpy mess kind of like melted sugar/caramel in the bottom of a glass of milk or ice cream. I also did not have my vat filled - I only had enough wax and rosin to fill up about 3 inches of a total vat that is 18 inches tall and suppsed to be filled to about 12 inches. I had to rotate the sides through to dip my boxes.

    I'm getting a lot more wax and rosin in this weekend and will try again with a full vat and waiting much longer for the rosin to dissolve in the wax. I am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?

    -fafrd

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
    II am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?

    -fafrd
    I added a great deal more wax to my dipping vat without increasing the rosin and dipped a few more hive bodies this weekend. The Rosin concentration was reduced from 25% to between 8% - 10% and the result was perfect. Color was clear, not light brown. At 250 degrees F for 8 minutes, all of the wax was absorbed into the wood following removal, so there is no 'waxy' or 'sticky' feel. In fact, the dipped boxes look and feel so much like undipped boxes that the only way to tell that they have been dipped is to spray some water on them (it beads up and runs off on the dipped boxes).

    I used high melt-point 'hurricane wax' which has a 160 degrees F melt point. The vat was full and the rosin seemed to form a gummy residue on the bottom. Dipped boxes had occasional 'wisps' or raised 'spots' of dark-brown rosin but they flake off very easily and leave a much better and more uniform appearance than my previous effort at 25% rosin concentration.

    I don't know where the original recipe for 25% gum rosin came from, but from my point of view the ration can easily be reduced to 10% / 90% with equally good (or even superior) results.

    -fafrd

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    A further update on my experiements with wax dipping and gum rosin concentration.

    I have dipped a few hive bodies in a gum-rosin concentration as low as 8.3% (a third of the recommended 25% concentration) and these hives came out nice and 'natural wood' light (close to the same color as before dipping) with no 'sticky' feel but a feeling of touching a wax surface which is just barely perceptible. From my point of view, 8.3% gum rosin is the lower limit on the concentrstion of gum rosin to add to the wax mixture to get an acceptable outcome.

    I have also increased the amount of gum rosin to 12.5% (half of the recommended 25% concentration) and the difference is suprisingly dramatic. The wood still has a nice 'natural wood' finish but is noticaby darker than before dipping and essentiall appears to be the color of wood after it has been varnished (light brown/tan). There is no perception of touching a wax surface at all and instead, there is more of a hard and powdery feeling due to the particles of gum rosin on the surface (which can br scraped off without too much effort). At 12.5%, the color is still much lighter than when I tried dipping at 25% and there is much less clumping of gum rosin and the resulting dark spots than when I dipped at 25%. From my poin of view, 12.5% gum rosin is the upper limit on the concentrstion of gum rosin to add to the wax mixture to get an acceptable outcome.

    So once again, I do not know where the original 25% gum-rosin concentration recipe originally came from, but from my experience and experiments I am convinced that 10% gum-rosin is a much more effective concentration with a target range of keeping the gum-rosin concentration between 8.3% to 12.5%.

    -fafrd

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    >Thanks Michael. Why do you use a higher ratio of Rosin? Have you ever tried a lower ratio?

    Since my "ratio" is as much by eye as anything I've had it vary a lot. But all in all, I like more rosin. I wouldn't mind 50/50. But 1:2 works ok.

    >I don't know why I got such bad clumping - perhaps I did not wait long enough 'at temperature' for the rosin to dissolve - it was a sticky, clumpy mess kind of like melted sugar/caramel in the bottom of a glass of milk or ice cream. I also did not have my vat filled - I only had enough wax and rosin to fill up about 3 inches of a total vat that is 18 inches tall and suppsed to be filled to about 12 inches. I had to rotate the sides through to dip my boxes.

    The temperature should be around 230 to 250 F and the boxes should cook for 10 minutes at that temperature. If the rosin is not melted, then the wax is not up to temperature. When it is there is no rosin that is not liquid.

    >I'm getting a lot more wax and rosin in this weekend and will try again with a full vat and waiting much longer for the rosin to dissolve in the wax.

    I just get it hot. I don't wait for it to dissolve. That would just get it hotter. There is the issue of it getting too hot and the boxes are what moderate the temperature as the water in them boils to cool things down.

    > I am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?

    I'd go for 50:50. I think you're going the wrong direction. But it probably doesn't matter. I just think the rosin is more durable than the wax.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The temperature should be around 230 to 250 F and the boxes should cook for 10 minutes at that temperature. If the rosin is not melted, then the wax is not up to temperature. When it is there is no rosin that is not liquid.
    My vat is now full of wax and I am heating it up to 250 degrees F for at least 15 minutes before dipping. Even at my reduced rosin concentration of 10%, I still have a thick 'sludge' on the bottom of the vat that appears to be almost all rosin. Have you ever run a long board along the bottom of your vat, Michael? If so, does it come out with a clump of melted brown rosin dripping off the end, or is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?

    There is some rosin dissolving into the molten wax mixture in my vat, because as I add more rosin, I get a darker brown color, but I definetly have a thick sludge of rosin coating the bottom of the vat. In fact, I've added a roasting rack to the bottom of the vat to lift the dipped wood off of the bottom of the vat so that the bottom of a box that has been dipped will not come out with the bottom edge coated with a layer of thick gummy rosin.

    Would appreciate any feedback to understand if my rosin appears to be behaving very differntly than it should...

    -fafrd
    Last edited by fafrd; 05-07-2010 at 11:43 PM. Reason: fixed typo

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    >My vat is now full of wax and I am heating it up to 250 degrees F for at least 15 minutes before dipping. Even at my reduced rosin concentration of 10%, I still have a thick 'sludge' on the bottom of the vat that appears to be almost all rosin. Have you ever run a long board along the bottom of your vat, Michael?

    Yes.

    > If so, does it come out with a clump of melted brown rosin dripping off the end, or is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?

    No sludge. But then I have beewax and rosin.. perhaps it mixes better?

    I do stir it with a stick when I add rosin or wax or both to get it mixed...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > Is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?

    No sludge. But then I have beewax and rosin.. perhaps it mixes better?
    Sounds like perhaps there was some problem with the Gum-Rosin I first purchased from Mann-Lake. Do you think I should try to heat the mixture to a higher temperature to see if that gets it to dissolve? It's a thick, medium-brown gummy mass that probably makes a layer 1/2" on the bottom. As the mixture boils, 2-3" long wisps break free and the sides of the box will usually have 3 or 4 of these caramel-like strands stuck to the sides (and the bottom edge of the box is usually half-covered in the stuff).

    No one else has ever had the 'sludge' effect with gum rosin, huh? Any advice appreciated...

    -fafrd

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    I dipped hives for the first time today.
    Had similar problems as you first and second dip, until the temperatures got high enough. I've added rosin too early, so it fell to the bottom and i had to stir for it to dissolve.
    When everything worked temperatures were 145-155 C.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
    No one else has ever had the 'sludge' effect with gum rosin, huh? Any advice appreciated...-fafrd
    Well, I don't use any, just straight wax at 350-375 let cool and spray the paint on before the wax becomes tacky.
    Good luck
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by t0k View Post
    I dipped hives for the first time today.
    Had similar problems as you first and second dip, until the temperatures got high enough. I've added rosin too early, so it fell to the bottom and i had to stir for it to dissolve.
    When everything worked temperatures were 145-155 C.
    I think you mean 245-255 egree C, right? My paraffin has a melt point of 165 degrees F.

    I may try heating higher to 280 degrees or so and mixing in the hope that this will help disolve my sludge.

    If that doesn't work, sounds like I may need to scrape it all out with a piece of scrap wood and start over with some fresh gum rosin.

    -fafrd

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Well, I don't use any, just straight wax at 350-375 let cool and spray the paint on before the wax becomes tacky.
    Good luck
    Jarret,

    I don't want to paint as I like the natural wood finish, and I think a bit of rosin helps avoid a waxy finish and smells nice. From what I've seen, 25% rosin ratio in the mix is just too much.

    350-375 degrees F seems quite a bit hotter than most of the recipes I have seen - why do you run it so hot and how long do you fry it at such a high temperature? I think I read somewhere that the flash point of parrafin is in the low 300's - aren't you worried about the safety issue at those high temperatures?

    -fafrd

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
    I think you mean 245-255 egree C, right? My paraffin has a melt point of 165 degrees F.

    I may try heating higher to 280 degrees or so and mixing in the hope that this will help disolve my sludge.

    If that doesn't work, sounds like I may need to scrape it all out with a piece of scrap wood and start over with some fresh gum rosin.

    -fafrd
    145 C is 293 F
    155 C is 311 F

    Flash point of parrafin is around (over mostly) 200 C - 392 F it depends on which parrafin you use

    Just try getting it to 300 F and i think you'll have no problem

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
    Jarret,

    and I think a bit of rosin helps avoid a waxy finish and smells nice. 350-375 degrees F seems quite a bit hotter than most of the recipes I have seen - why do you run it so hot and how long do you fry it at such a high temperature?
    -fafrd
    I think 400-425 is the flash point. but the main reason to get it hot is you use less wax and as it cools it soak into the wood, you won't even know they have been waxed after that 3-5 minute soak time.

    Good luck with your project.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  18. #38

    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    I do not think the rosin does anything in this application but I used it because of the suggestions from Mann Lake. As I added more wax and it diluted down it seemed to improve the quality of the final product.

    I also noticed some sludge at the bottom at all temp ranges. Just dipping in wax will give you a great preserved box that you will not have to worry about for decades. By then you will not care.

    happy dipping

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    I found that it worked best between 230 and 250 F. Below 230 it doesn't cook very well. Over 250 F would be risky, in my opinion due to boil overs and fire hazard. This is 110 to 122 C.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?

    How is everyone handling the boxes... how to you hook them out of the parrafin/rosin fryer? Does handling them hot, say with welding gloves or somesuch, leave marks?
    Bees, brews and fun
    in Lyons, CO

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