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"No Treatment of Honey Bees Report" by StevenG

93K views 163 replies 44 participants last post by  oparea 
#1 ·
Here it is. Between Barry's schedule and mine, it's taken a while. And do not ask me what I think of the word processing program that we have to use for this.

Here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

DO NOT post comments there. We'll discuss it here.

Now, as background, this report came about because folks wanted data - dates, activities, results. This is not a scientific study, it is simply a report that will, when concluded, track 6 years of all of my hives. Beginning 4 seasons ago, and concluding in Dec. 2011.

As indicated, it is a real pain getting the data in there and formatted, so please forgive any errors. I have all the summations in, and details on 3 on the 14 hives. I have the data for the other 11 hives in my word processing program in my computer, and will get it transferred as soon as possible. I hope you find this interesting and helpful. If not, just ignore it.

For all the other reports and data that has been generated as a result of our discussions a few weeks ago about "Treatment Free", I think its exciting!
Regards,
Steven
 
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#85 · (Edited)
Greetings folks!

Thanks for your kind words DeeAnna.

I had a pm question from Tim in KY about some issues I had with foundationless, and I thought I'd answer here to help others. When I went foundationless, I didn't have much drawn comb, and was expanding. So I simply put a 10-frame foundationless deep on some hives, because that was what I had. BIG mistake! Some comb was drawn nicely, most was drawn willy-nilly, and woven together in such a way you couldn't get the frames apart without major damage. So I thought to use a queen excluder and eventually get those boxes to the top of the hive with honey in them, them extract. Sigh, not going smoothly. And most of the comb they drew was the ugliest drone comb you ever saw. And paradoxically, some hives drew out beautiful worker comb. Others have mentioned that they'll draw drone comb until they have enough, then draw worker. But I've never seen so many drones in my colonies.

Ok, what I've learned. Gotta put foundationless frames between nicely drawn worker brood comb, and the bees will draw the foundationless nice and straight. Generally. lolol I use wedge top, divided bottom bar frames, that's what I had. I simply turned the wedge and nailed it in vertically, instead of as it is supposed to be nailed in. Bees used that as a guide, and it worked very well. I did not use starter strips of foundation. You cannot put foundationless frames in between frames of foundation...bees will do what they want, and you won't like it.

I'm reverting to foundation, until I get the messes cleaned up. Though I am doing some foundationless as a continuing test. But I'm not as enamored of it as some are. FWIW
Regards,
Steven
 
#89 ·
I started out with DuraComb. When the bees misdrew it I blamed the plastic. I went to wax. When it melted and crumpled and when they drew it uneven, I blamed the wax. I tried putting drawn combs between undrawn combs and they drew out the drawn combs so they protruded so far into the space of the undrawn next to them that I couldn't get a single frame out of the hive. I went to plastic. When they built fins on it and combs between other combs I blamed the plastic. I went to foundationless. They sometimes make some of those mistakes, but the foundation never crumples, they never build fins out from the face, if I space them right they don't try to build a comb between two foundations. I think we often blame the foundation or lack of it when it's the timing, the genetics or the method that is at fault. Putting drawn combs between foundation in a honey super was not the right method. Putting foundation in when it was hot caused the buckling. Putting the plastic in where there wasn't a flow and/or spacing it wrong lead to issues with that.

Now I use a mixture of all of them with no serious issues, but some issues just come with working with creatures that can and do make decisions.

Don't you find it interesting how many people hate one or more of these methods and are sold on one or more other methods and yet people are fairly evenly divided on which one they hate and which one they love?
 
#91 ·
Don't you find it interesting how many people hate one or more of these methods and are sold on one or more other methods and yet people are fairly evenly divided on which one they hate and which one they love?
Yes. People tend to make draw conclusions based on only limited knowledge and with that limited knowledge truly believe that they are correct and that others who have drawn different conclusions are wrong. They can stick to those conclusions all their lives without ever investigating what the truth really is.

Of course we do this with politics, career decisions, love decisions, etc, too.

Maybe if we are truly honest, beekeeping can teach us humility of what we know of life.
 
#90 ·
:lpf: BeeG, Michael Bush nailed it perfectly! If I put foundationless between perfectly drawn comb during a honey flow, the bees drew it beautifully. If I put a box of foundationless frames on a hive, I generally had a mess. And I didn't like frames and frames of drone comb. I was expanding my colony numbers, and just didn't have enough drawn comb.

FWIW, what I discovered was the best way to get the best foundationless comb was to insert foundationless frames between frames of perfectly drawn worker comb. It didn't matter if that perfectly drawn comb was on foundation or was itself foundationless. Since my initial experiences, I've used some foundationless, but like I've said, between drawn comb. As a creature of habit, I prefer foundation - fewer headaches or need for careful planning on my part. But I have a lot of time pressures, and tend to find things that are easy and quicker. When I retire, and have more time for the bees, might do some things differently.
Hope that makes sense.
Steven
 
#93 ·
... We could call this laziness or expediency. Making up opur minds based on little knowledge or evidence. Who has the time?
Good point Mark. But we all do it. We make up our minds based on what knowledge and/or experience/evidence we have. Perhaps the difference between wisdom and foolishness is that wisdom keeps an open mind to new knowledge/experience, thus modifying decisions/actions/activities, and foolishness does not.
Regards,
Steven
 
#95 ·
I think most of us have been burned by various "experts" in such a way that many of us, well, at least my approach is to trust, but verify. Another fly in the ointment, particularly when it comes to beekeeping, is that what works in one section of the country, just might not work in another section of the country. Thus a trustworthy expert in New England for instance, might be a complete failure in Texas, if he/she practiced New England beekeeping in Texas. Just a for instance. Of course, there are certain generic truths applicable to any locale, but...

Meanwhile, I'll read and trust people like the lamentably deceased Richard Taylor any day of the week.
Regards,
Steven
 
#96 ·
Agreed StevenG. So many variables in beekeeping. And it really is part science and part art. And Richard Taylor like several of the more experienced guys on here seem to have a deep understanding of bee behavior that goes beyond facts.
 
#98 · (Edited)
Greetings all!
It has been a while, but I won't bore you with the details in my personal/family life this past fall. But it's past time for an update on my program.
FYI, the two colonies I restarted beekeeping with in the Spring of 2006, treatment free, are still going strong, and still treatment free.

In the Fall of 2010 I entered winter with 27 hives. I lost four over winter, entered 2011 with 23 live colonies.

Expansion goals: I hoped to hit 50 colonies this year. So, Spring 2011 I bought 20 B. Weaver and 2 Russian queens, for splits and requeening. Because of queen issues, during the summer I bought 3 more Weavers and 2 more Russians. I managed to get up to 44 colonies. However, due to absconding and queen issues I lost 10 colonies between June 1 and Aug. 1. One hive succumbed to the small hive beetle, but it obviously had other problems. I had entered the year with some comb messes related to ppm and foundationless frames. That cost me problems with colonies, but I managed to get all that mess cleaned up this summer.

I entered Fall 2011 with 34 live colonies, all heavy with stores.

Honey: The crop this year was poor again. Clover in two fields I have bees on failed to bloom. I moved my trailer of 20 hives to soybeans again, and got a good crop there. From 22 producing colonies, I gained 681 pounds of honey. That is a 36.8 pound average. The breakdown is as follows: Weaver queens averaged 28.76 pounds each. Purvis mutts averaged 47 pounds each. The one productive Russian hive gave me all of 5 pounds... I really struggled with the Russians this year, and clover failed there as well.

I had 7 colonies produce over 50 pounds each: 2 led by Purvis mutts, 5 led by B. Weavers. The Purvis colonies averaged 60 pounds each, the Weavers averaged 58.3 pounds each.

For those who like to pick nits, the only treatments I gave my bees were a couple of feedings of granulated cane sugar syrup, one with HBH. Also one feeding of Mega Bee. That's it.

For 2012 if my Russians don't do any better, I'll phase them out, replacing them with a different strain. I have four Russell Sunkist Queens on order. I have tried in the past Minnesota Hygenic, but they didn't work out, and I've replaced them with Weavers.

I checked the four hives in the back yard today, bees flying and still very heavy with stores. In a week or two I'll do a serious check of all my hives, but right now, I'm leaving well enough alone.
Regards,
Steven
 
#100 ·
At this point, when I requeen a colony, I do so with a bought queen. When I expand via splits, I do a walk-away split, and let the bees raise their own queen. A queen called a Purvis or Weaver queen for example, is bought. A Purvis or Weaver Mutt is the result of a walk-away split, and not bought, thus not pure-mated, as I have no control over how they mate in my yards.

I try to mark my queens so I know their age, but I'm not always successful. So every third year I try to replace the hive's queen, if the bees have not already done so. Thus my queens generally have 2 years of laying.

My goal is to have at least two genetic lines, if not three, in each apiary. And I'm hoping in the next 2-4 years to begin raising my own by means other than walk-away. There are factors in my family life for the next two years that preclude me reaching that goal any faster.
Regards,
Steven
 
#102 ·
Excellent question. Of my top 7 producers, 4 were splits with new B. Weaver queens. 1 was an older purebred Purvis. 2 were Weaver Mutts, walk away splits last year. The other 15 producers were 8 new B. Weaver queens this year (either splits, or requeened) and 7 mutts, all walk-away splits last year.

This year, with no money for new queens (and no real need because of requeening and new queens last year), I plan to do mainly walk-away splits.
Regards,
Steven
 
#103 ·
WOO HOO!!!! I'm a very happy camper!! :banana:
Just checked the colonies for the first time this year. First the caveat...in post 98 I indicated I entered Fall/winter 2011 with 34 live colonies - was actually only 32. 4 at home, 21 in one out-apiary, and my 7 Russians in another out-apiary. I lost only 2 this winter! That is a paltry 6 per cent loss. Of the remaining 30, I have to feed 5, as they feel very light. All the others are very heavy with stores still, and all bees are bringing in pollen. So, we'll see what this year brings. May you all have such good fortune!
and this is treatment free, on large-cell foundation or foundationless.
Regards,
Steven
 
#114 ·
StevenG -- Without your management practices the genetic potential of your bees would never be realized. They are just living and dying like they have always done. Bees have been dealing with them longer than we have been keeping bees. New challenges always come along. Give yourself credit for giving them all they really need, a place to live, and decreasing their stress by only getting into the hive when needed. :thumbsup:
 
#108 · (Edited)
:D I've been giving it in most of my posts, Sol!
1. Buy your bees/queens from a breeder who does not treat. Period. No kind of treatment for mites, not even soft.
2. Do not treat. No matter what anyone says, IF you've done #1. You don't even have to do mite counts, IF you've done #1. And perhaps this is my greatest heresy - I've never done a mite count. Never plan to. :lookout: I figure my colonies have mites, but the bees know what to do. After all, I've bought "survivors".
3. Don't try anything fancy the first year or two...go with the basics, Langstroth equipment, basic management skills. Learn to keep your bees alive. Master the basics. You can pick up an old bee book cheap, read it and master it. In the second or third year you can begin to play around, if you wish. Too many forget it is the basics that do more than anything else to help a colony thrive.
4. Realize you are going to lose hives. So what? Everyone does. Get over it, do a post mortem on the dead hive, learn from it, start over.
5. As soon as you feel comfortable, go without gloves. That will lessen your fear of the bees, make your movements more deliberate, and make you more confident. Yes, you're going to get stung. So what? They're honeybees for heaven's sake. (if for some reason your health mitigates against this, ignore this point.)

Sol, rightly or wrongly, I think most newbies latch onto the latest fad in beekeeping, when more losses are caused by mismanagement and simply failing to master the basics. As most of us who have been around a bit know, there is no magic bullet. Beekeeping is hard work today. But man alive, it sure is fun and rewarding!

More than anything else, I attribute my success to the genetics of my bees, and the various sources from which I've acquired them.

By the way, I got my first arthritis treatment of the year yesterday. Even let the stinger pump all the venom into my left hand...I guess I'm becoming masochistic...oh...wait! Beekeepers are by nature masochistic! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven
 
#115 ·
<snip>
By the way, I got my first arthritis treatment of the year yesterday. Even let the stinger pump all the venom into my left hand...I guess I'm becoming masochistic...oh...wait! Beekeepers are by nature masochistic! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven
I hope I didn't quote too much...

I'm not sure if he's right or wrong but I think it was Roger Moore that stated that the stinger dumps basically all of it's venom at the time of the sting and that the pumping action seen is not actually pumping venom but is the barbed stinger digging deeper to give the venom a deeper entryway.
 
#112 ·
By not treating, I don't spend time on acquiring and installing chemicals. Nor do I spend time on mite counts, or anything else related to treating or mites. Having never done those things, I don't know how much time I've saved, but know I have saved some. From the pros here, I've learned how to inspect a hive by watching the entrance. Minimizes the number of times I have to open the colony. Experience also teaches the time of the year I must get into the hive.

And of course there are those times when I simply need my fix, and go thru a colony.
Regards,
Steven
 
#117 · (Edited)
You're probably right, bird. Morse is the only person I've heard mention that. Here is a link to what Dave Cushman presented on his website regarding the sting/stinger...nice drawings and info...

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/stingstructure.html

Well, now I'm beginning to wonder if it was Morse that may the statement above...I'll have to keep digging to find that one....or else I dreamed it up!
 
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