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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    narrows, va usa
    Posts
    4

    Default Supers with no exposed end grain

    my business partner and i are building super using a lock miter router bit. they have been working out great. there is no exposed end grain at all. we are thinking that the hives will last longer since that is one of the first places to rot out. we have never seen anyone doing this and thought we'd share the idea. here is the bit we are using:

    http://www.freud-tools.com/freudlocmitb.html

    there are two sizes of the freud. our boxes are 1" thick so we have the bigger of the two which can handle stock over 1". i forget the max stock thickness.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Dexter, Maine
    Posts
    1,037

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    What type of glue will you be using? Let us know how they work out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Vamtjewboy,

    I have te same bit and and planning to build my supers and hive bodies in the same way.

    I believe that the reason that the commodity supers/bodies do not use this design is that it is very sensitive to any swelling/shrinking/warping of the wood, so a lock mitre joint will not store well or ship well. The joint needs to be glued soon after routing to assure an easy and successful fit.

    So for mass production and shipping around the country unssembled, the lock miter joint is probably not the best choice. For us 'do-it-yourselfers' with a router table, on the other hand, it is perfect.

    I have a question for you since I am just about to route my first supers. Do you think the joint will be strong enough with glue only and no nails, or do you think it needs to be nailed as well? If you decided to use nails as well, how many nails did you use per joint and in what configuration?

    Any tips you have for me to help assure that my first supers built with my new lock router bit come out successfully would be greatly appreciated.

    -fafrd

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hi Fafrd et al, I have built deep and medium supers out of yellow pine and hardwood plywood. All of the materials were 3/4" thick. The plywood came out of a garage, was well cured, flat etc. but was slated for the garbage. I took the plunge and made the boxes with Miter Lock joints. They are now going through their second winter in Kentucky, have only glued joints with no metal fasteners. They are coated on the outside with a Latex primer and Latex house paint. So far we have great results. On the plywood boxes we did not machine hand-holds for fear of de-lamination at these points and so used cleats. In my mind Miter Lock joints are the way to go. How they would work in production and with warped lumber I have no idea. Hope this helps. Take care and have fun

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Dexter, Maine
    Posts
    1,037

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    How it would work with cupped lumber is my big question, I buy alot of cheap lumber, and with my rabbet joint, glue and good size staples as well as the occassional clamp I am able to squeeze about anything into shape. I would like to use a lock miter but not at the cost of having to buy only full price wood...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Alex,

    thanks for the feedback. I've got a bunch of scrap plywood as well (not sure if it is hardwood or not - I believe it is exterior grade) but had thought that use of plywood in the hive body could be a problem due to outgassing.

    In any case, your experience encourags me that the lock miter joint can be used with glue only and without any nails, so 'm at least tempted to try it that way until proven that it's a bad idea.

    -fafrd

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Lexington, South Carolina
    Posts
    261

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Do you have a picture of a completed box?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Stillman Valley,IL,USA
    Posts
    75

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    how many passes do you have to make? your taking out a lot of wood.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hello fafrd, brac, brooklyn et al.
    To answer some of your questions, take a look at MLSwoodworking.com and seach for the video on the Miter Lock. I have used that to educate myself on that system. However, I am using a hombuilt router table that works very good and I am running a 2 1/4 hp router that takes 1/2" shanked router bits. At first I used the double sided tape but that became too cumbersome. So, I set the initial cut a bit shallower and now run two or three passes, carfurlly of course. Once you get the hang of it it goes quite fast. You also might consider featherboards. The glue I use is Titebond II or III. I hope that I answered some of your questions. Remember, however, I am just a woodworking and beekeeping hobbyist and so I do think sometime way outside the box. I cannot show you my boxes right now as I am not at home. For more routing information look into some of the woodworking forums. They helped me quite a bit. Take care and have fun.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Once more on the above subject. I checked to find the correct address for you and the information above seems to be a bit difficult.
    Here is more: http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops...lockmiter.html

    Hopefully that will help some more. Take care and have fun

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    clayton cal.
    Posts
    199

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    what about the rabit for the frame rest -how is this incorporated into the joint-so as not to make a thin spot where your hive tool will break out the corner when prying the boxes apart-RDY-B

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hello RDY-B. What I do is cut the boards to the exact outside dimension. The frame rest can be routed on the router table either before or after cutting the Miter Lock. I cut mine with a 3/4" straigth router bit sticking out from the fence the required 3/8". I mark the ends of the cut with a pencil on the fence. I then plunge the board down near the "upwind" end, move carefully to the mark and then move in the other direction until I reach the other mark. Works for me, hope it does for you. Take care and have fun.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hello, well I just wondered if anyone looked at the video and what they think. I was happy to see those prices for the bits as I paid a bit more when I started. Take care and have fun.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Lexington, South Carolina
    Posts
    261

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Alex,
    Thanks,even a person with very little experience with wood working can do that.It also looks like it will hold better then most other joints.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Skil has a new Lock Miter bit whch will handle 3/4" material and issignifcanly less expensive than the bits from Freud. I found this bit at Lowe's for less than $30:

    http://www.toolorbit.com/Skil/Skil-91703.html

    Also, here is another video that gives a good end-view of the joint:

    http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...ter+Router+Bit

    -fafrd

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Lexington, South Carolina
    Posts
    261

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    What type bit do you use to do the frame rales on the inside of the box ?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Brooklyn,

    I do the same as Alex described in an earler post, but I use a 3/8" straght bit to get a bit less rounding in the corner (Alex uses a 3/4" straigt bit, which will result is more rounded inner corners. Also, since I know that I never want my top bars closer than 3/8" from the wall of the hive, I also begin my route 1-1/8" from the outside edge of the joint. I set the bit so that the outside edge is flush with the inside edge of the fence and it has a depth of 5/8 above the table height. Board is then held vertically out from the fence with 1-1/8" clear of the bit so that when the board is pressed into the fence route has cut a channel 3/8" wide (and 5/8" deep) into the thickness of the board beginning 1-1/8" in from the edge. Board is then slid vertically along the fence to within 1-1/8" of the opposite end of the board and then the board is pulled back from the fence to complete the route.

    I am still experimenting so see if I am better off doing this in a single pass or multiple passes (as I do with the lock miter joint), but this seems to give me a pretty strong frame rest that does not weaken the lock miter joint.

    -fafrd

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hello again, I am gratified that you have found the videos and some additional info. I am sure that from here there will be some great results coming including some new ideas. Just one little note on any woodworking activities: "Safety is Number One!"
    Right now we are remote from our hives but we have a good neighbor who is taking an interest and we are very thankful to him.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Stillman Valley,IL,USA
    Posts
    75

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Today I got a miter lock joint bit. I ran 30 supers through in a little over 3 hrs., One heck of a faster than box joints. I made 2 passes and it worked out great. The jury is still out on assembly. I assembled one today and used 8 bar clamps. I'm going to try and use fewer clamps and do a bit of nailing. I like the idea of no exposed end grain. I put the cup towards me and kind of rolled it through router and it worked O.K. I'm going to assemble tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes. Any tips?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Lexington, KY, USA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Supers with no exposed end grain

    Hello Bennybee et al, glad you find this method useful. On assembly, I was amazed on how quick and square the boxes fit together. I do measure diagonally, however, after the clamps are on and sometimes make minor adjustments, thats all. Right now I am still impressed with the photos that Botek sent from Slovenia in the Newcomers section. It is worthwhile to look at as it gives me the reassurance that, if those people who have far less means and opportunity can do it, we sure can do it. Take care and have fun

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