Reading a previous thread on a lack of honey bees I can't help but think one way to help would be if more beekeepers practiced self-sustaining beekeeping. I'm not too sure how much this would help some of the bigger commercial beeks but if more beekeeping clubs of hobby beekeepers and even smaller commercial and sideline beekeepers were to become self sufficient more of the larger bee breeders would be able to more effectivley provide bees to the larger commercial beekeepers. With only buying queens if required for genetic diversity a group of beekeepers could band together to trade nucs and queens. Locally grown colonies would help but only if enough beekeepers participated. From what I've seen, the last thing beekeepers learn is how to make queens or produce nucs. I know of beekeepers who have been at it for many many years and still make sure to get their orders for packages in every November. There are a few clubs in my area that are trying. Its a thought.
My plan is to start overwintering nucs and not have to buy anymore packages after this year. I hope everything goes well. If everything goes to plan for me (which it won't) I will go into winter with 4 hives, 5 single polystyrene nucs, and 2 double nucs.
Hi: great pumpkin. I'am in Findlay and would like to know how things go! This winter, so far has been a *****, **** or what ever, as you know - MISERABLE!!
I know what a nuc is, but why not start in a super? or do splits in the spring?
Just do not know. Have been doing this as a hobby for 6>8 years now. Still learning!!,Had 6 hivesin the fall, not looked yet, but there will be less come good weather (if it gets here). What type of bees do you have? Or "Mutts" as Mr. Bush puts it.
Thanks ahead of time.
That's an interesting concept, and has a great deal of validity. Also cheaper on us beeks. I wonder, however, if the "big boys" have trouble getting all the packages, nucs, queens they need? Anyone know?
Most of them make up losses and/or make increases themselves from their existing colonies. This is one reason many go south for the winter, the other is to make packages and nucs to sell to those in the north that need bees every spring.
Some of them raise their own queens, while those that don't make their own, buy queens or cells from those that do.
Sheri
I agree it is very interesting idea. How many hives would you think a beek would need to be self sustaining? How many to produce each year, and in what way..splits and let rear own queen, make up nucs and introduce queens, something else? Clearly there are a lot of different possibilities, but how do you see a sideliner beek putting it into action?
Becoming self sufficient has nothing to do with how many colonies you maintain. Granted, raising your own queens means more colonies needed, but becoming self sufficient for bees is no big deal.
You see, you can winter nucleus colonies quite easily...Erin? Erin's apiary has grown exponentially since she first heard the word. Now she's spreading that word to others...which is all I've asked of my "students". Way to go, girl!
See, you always have a colony or two that just doesn't make a honey crop. It's not that they're weak and unhealthy. Just aren't making the crop that other colonies are. These non-productive colonies are deficits in you apiary. Rather than futz around trying to save them, you use the bees and brood to create nucleus colonies...sometime near the end of the main honey flow. You winter them. In the spring, you have what replacement colonies you need...bam!
Then, because you have these nucs in the spring, you don't have to split up yor strong colonies to make your nucs...allowing those good colonies to build large populations and make good honey crops. Obviously swarm control is necessary, but splitting a strong colony should be tha last resort for swarm control, not the first.
Once you have learned to winter nucleus colonies, you will always have a few that are weaker in the spring. These are allowed to build up into double deeps and are then broken up into nucs in mid-summer near the end of the main flow. The plan becomes self sufficient.
The changeover will take a few years. Make your plans now. You'll never see the benefits if you don't get started.
Once you have this supply of nucleus colonies, you'll be amazed at how your apiary improves. You have laying queens...look at wintering nucs as queens...to be used in requeening, boosting weak spring colonies, or making increase. During the time they are building up you have extra frames of brood and bees to add to weaker colonies...frames of brood removed from the nucs as a swarm control method.
See my article in Bee Culture in the March issue entitled...
Would it be safe to say that most "big boys" are self sustaining other than the fact they subcontract for queens. The queens they purchase allow the queen supplier to be self sufficient in just raising queens since that leaves him no time to produce honey to pay the bills.
Thanks for chiming in Sheri, I enjoy your posts on the commercial threads...
I also imagine some commercial beeks add to their income by selling nucs to us sideliners... and backyarders... I'm buying two nucs and 6 queens from a northern commercial beek who winters in Mississippi.
Re: Sideliners becoming self-sustaining? That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I want to top out between 50-60 hives. now have only 14. I'll get there by buying nucs, making splits with bought queens to improve my genetic mix. But primarily by splitting and letting the splits raise their own queens. I think the concept is very workable for us sideliners. And economical too!
However, I also suspect we need to keep supporting those who sell queens, nucs, and packages for a living. If we don't buy, they don't make a living, and won't be there to provide us bees when we need them.
Regards,
Steven
I am curious... I consider myself to be self sustaining, but not by raising queens or Nucs. Instead, I put out bait boxes and retrieve swarms. This also diminishes the number of hives/swarms that are killed by exterminators. I usually have enough to supply to other bee club members.
Raise your own queens! (hey, wait a minute, beekeepers don't raise queens, WORKER BEES raise queens and yes, they do it all the time - particularly in the Spring!)
Create overwintering nucs - small colonies in June/July in Northern States that build up to slightly bigger small colonies by fall and live through winter and BANG! explode out in the spring like they were some kind of super beehive raised from the best of the best in the prior year and never got shipped anywhere and never had any chemicals or miticides in their hives. Yeah - because that's how you do it.
-Whoops - how many toes have I just stomped on with my cowboy boots?-
Seriously, you just pushed my super big button.
I just about an hour ago got finished teaching the second night of Maine's only Intermediate level Bee School 'Apiary Management'. Tonight's subjects were "Spring Management, Swarming, Nucs and Splits and Importance of the Queen".
All that in two hours. It was a big night for me but I think I hit all of the major points and I know I had all 56 beekeepers engaged.
Anyway, I hope you continue on this path and understand that the best queens are reared by colonies who are not under stress and have abundant sources of nutritional input. Add to that a good supply of healthy drones from happy healthy beehives and you've got a sustainable apiary.
(key is you have to play on their team by their rules)
Create overwintering nucs - small colonies in June/July in Northern States that build up to slightly bigger small colonies by fall and live through winter and BANG! explode out in the spring like they were some kind of super beehive raised from the best of the best in the prior year and never got shipped anywhere and never had any chemicals or miticides in their hives. Yeah - because that's how you do it.
OK, so what is the best way for a newbie to do this? (I'm still waiting to see if my two hives make it through their first winter but I'm hopeful. They were OK just prior to the last cold snap a few weeks ago.) Step by step if you can point me to a link.
My first and only hive died this December
But I will be started 3-4 new hives this year. Have two nucs ordered already for Spring. I will be setting out a swarm baiting hive as well, just to catch any passersby.
sounds like a great idea too me but does greed come in to play here too. I would be willing to share stock with another. in return would I get some good genes or AFB. as a commercial beekeeper. its my livening soooooooo being that said would people get there bees inspected to prove there clean? if so count me in 100%.
Don
There is no need to worry about a shortage of bees on a commercial level. Sure some have losses and some fail, just as in any industry. Others grow to fill their place. There are enough bees made every year to fill these losses and supply those hobbyist and sideliners with their winter loss/spring increase bees.
Even if taking pressure off commercial supply is not warranted there may be other reasons to become more regionally, if not individually, self sustaining.
Individually self sustainment is a wonderful goal, if that is what one wants to do, but self-sustainment just for the sake of calling yourself that would be a hollow title if it lowers the productivity or enjoyment of your apiary because you are doing something you just have no interest in.
I am not trying to discourage anyone from making their own nucs or rearing their own queens. It is one of the most interesting and satisfying aspects of beekeeping, but everything has it's price, it also uses resources in terms of bees and time. While some may find this work fascinating, some find it tedious. No one should be made to feel inferior because they choose to utilize specialists for replacement bees for winter losses or spring increase.
None of us are islands, none of us are totally self sustaining, we are all inter dependent to some degree. Using all the resources at your disposal in the most efficient manner (time, money, equity and expert subcontractors) may be the quickest road to self sustainment, in it's broadest, most practical definition.
Sheri
Sheri, I agree. Find what you are most efficient at, and purchase that which you are not good at. All that aside, I encourage the overwintering of Nucs as presented by Erin and M. Palmer. It may be that overwintering Nucs is precisely what they do best.
Fat/Beeman - I'm not sure of Georgia but in Virginia all Nucs have to be inspected by the state apiarist prior to sale.
Sheri, I get your point but most beekeepers I know either don't even know how to raise a queen or have not been taught how. Raising queens is not hard work, it doesn't take a whole lot of time (well maybe if your running a lot of hives it might) but the point is most beekeepers don't even try. Although I think your right about beeks not having to make queens and splits but the mentality is that its too much work or that the skill involved is too much to learn. That's not the case. But I guess its not for everyone.
Michael Palmer, It was great to read your post. You spoke at the spring 08 meeting of the Virginia State Beekeepers. Your methods and the information you put out are being used by my club for teaching new beekeepers, raising queens and making and holding nucs through winter. Thanks.
Hampton, queen rearing is something a lot of beekeepers are interested in and we encourage that interest. We have a few local beeks that come by every year to try their hand at it. I let them graft a couple frames if they wish. The first frame can be pretty bad but it is notable how well many do with just a little practice. No, it is not hard, especially on a small scale.
Sheri
Fuzz et al: I have a powerpoint slide presentation with 40 or so slides from my last night class presentation and only one with words on it (other than the title page).
I'd be happy to share it, I am sure that many or most would be able to infer something valuable from photos. We could easily make a game of it! 100 different versions of Erin's slide presentation. I say lets go for it.
If someone knows an easy way for me to share a 29MB PDF of a powerpoint presentation, please pm or email me directly and I'll get it right out there.
This is fun.
I have to say that the only thing that gets me more energized than being in a room full of beekeepers is being in an apiary with lots of flying happy hives.
Let's kick it up, keep the learning going, and play on the bees team.
"I have to say that the only thing that gets me more energized than being in a room full of beekeepers is being in an apiary with lots of flying happy hives."
If you are in an apiary with flying hives then one of two things is possible.
a. you are standing in tornado alley on a bad day
b. you've been hitting the hooch a bit too much
My goal over the next few seasons is to take steps toward having a self-sufficient 10-15 colonies here. I'm overwintering one small colony in a single deep as practice for next winter when I hope to make up half a dozen 4-5 frame nucs with northern raised Russian queens to bring through winter. Then in 2011 I want to start raising some queens myself. Maybe in a few years I'll have enough nucs I can start selling them.
I didn't know this is what it's called but it appears I may be doing it. I've got 9 hives and I grafted queens for requeening certain hives and all of my 6 nucs. I fugured any hives that didn't make I'd replace with nucs that are headed by Fall queens. I'd love to see the presentation to learn more.
I'm not sure if there is a set of guidelines to measure if I am selfsustaining or not but I think of it as the number of colonies I have in one year to the number I have in the next. Then where did the difference come from or go to. And lastly did I have excess colonies that I provided to other beekeepers. In my case I count colonies and queens each as a 1, so if I sell a nuc it counts as 1, if I sell just a queen I still count her as 1.
so last year I had 5 colonies and started with 2 nucs in the spring. I went into winter with 6 colonies and 3 nucs. I purchased no bees (packages or nucs) or queens so as of fall 09 I was at +2. But also during the summer I provided nucs which put me well above that. Off hand I don't know how many, I would have to look in my records and count, but its above 10.
this year I am purchasing 4 queens to put in my out yards but I will still be in a positive number by fall as the new queens will only subtract -4 from my total.
I guess this number could be a running count from spring to summer to fall to winter and back to spring. The further away from zero one side of the other would be the gauge of how you are doing, self sustaining or not.
I've been thinking about my question of how many hives would be needed to be self sustaining, and I see the point that it's not about numbers but about management style. I guess many people who only keep one or two hives are probally not interested in making nucs to over winter or otherwise making increase, and are happy to buy replacements as needed. Good thing too, as nuc producers need a market. I am looking foward to the March Bee Culture issue for the nuc article...I just got the January issue today (I haven't subscribed yet and still pick up a copy when I go to TSC for chicken feed). I think where I am is not sustainability but GROWTH! lol
Working on the upload with no success.
My website server only allows 2M attachments or smaller.
In any event, the powerpoint is the background and the visual, the talking is the real teaching.
I will certainly be doing this Intermediate Bee School again. Further, your own Master Beekeepers or other Bee School instructors can do the same or similar programs - but you are going to have to ask the beekeeper to do the class and then they'll need to coordinate with cooperative extension or whoever they can get to help get the room, take the fees, order the books, etc. Seriously, I simply called up the cooperative extension agent her in Cumberland County, introduced myself and said I'd like to start an Intermediate bee school. We met one time re: curriculum (which I prepared as he doesn't know much about bees) and then I made the syllabus and the extension office commenced to registering students. Publicity via the state association website and the Extension newsletter. Voila, Intermediate Bee School!
To any who might consider teaching: I taught the second class this past wednesday (after a long accountant's day of work during Year End). I'll admit, I started off feeling tired and less well prepared than I wanted to be. The class was 56 students. Spring Management of Overwintered Colonies, Swarming, Making Nucs and Splits, and Understanding the Queen were the topics. Class = 2 hours.
I left the class so totally jazzed up, I can't even describe it. I think I saw at least 35 lightbulbs turn on over student's heads. Maybe even all 56.
Teaching beginner bee school is fun. Teaching intermediate bee school is a total blast.
I am sure that these students are to me as I am to Mike -
Positive energy feeds positive energy.
This is a good thing and we should all work to keep the learning and the growing.
As Erin said, there are problems in sending a powerpoint presentation.
The files are too large. My presentation "Successful Overwintering of Nucleus Colonies in Vermont" is 183 MB. The PP that accompanies my March "Bee Culture" article is 34 MB.
Powerpoint is only a crutch used by the presenter. It is more like an outline that a book. There are lots of bullets and photographs to support the presentation, but it's not the presentation itself.
My presentation comes along with me. I'd be glad to share with you if your association can get me there. It's taken me many years of trial and error to get where I am. It's taken me years of work to get my presentation to where it is. I couldn't send it out without me as backup. You do understand?
Mike
I know of beekeepers who have been at it for many many years and still make sure to get their orders for packages in every November. There are a few clubs in my area that are trying. Its a thought.
Hey "Hampton" we have talked before - I am your up north neighbor. Colonial Beekeepers are moving in this direction as well.
This year is the first I will not buy any packages and that our club will not buy any packages as a club. Our 25 beginning students will all get 1 nuc that our club members make (with the majority of thsoe being overwintered nucs) and 1 package. This represents 50% less packages than two years ago when all we could offer students were packages. We are really only a very small group doing this- less than 10 of us, but look at the progress we are making? Now we have 2 years of students who are getting exposed to a nuc right at the start.
Erin and Mike have been good teachers to us, even from such a distance, but talking and sharing our experiences and using this forum have also served an important function.
For those of you from NC, Dave Tarpy of NC Sate Univ. will be having queen rearing & bee breeding workshops across the state this spring. Check it out. It should be great. I plan to do it.
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