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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Malabar, FL
    Posts
    1,268

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    will the bees build around the wires?

    yes, they will build the comb right around it, they "imbed" the wire in their comb
    A government large enough to provide everything you need is strong enough to take everything you have. T. Jefferson

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    hamburg, new york, usa
    Posts
    440

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Quote Originally Posted by lupester View Post
    I talked to a lady there and asked about it.
    I do not like these games.
    Why do not they post it if it is so.
    IT IS GOOD BEEKEEPING PRACTICE TO TAKE WINTER LOSSES IN THE FALL - Farrar

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,292

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Quote Originally Posted by 11x View Post
    will the bees build around the wires?
    Not only will the bees build around the wires, effectively embedding the wire into their foundationless comb, but I once had the bees begin a comb on the top wire and build the comb both directions from there, up to the top bar and down around the other wires and to the bottom bar. In retrospect, I should have marked that comb, now I can't tell it from any of the other ones.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Clarkson, KY. USA
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Hi Guys,
    The new foundationless frame is in the new catalog, which is being mailed on Tuesday the 19th. This frame is called our F style. We are making this frame in deep and medium sizes. 1-49 = .95 ea. 50-99 = .75 ea. 100-499 = .68 ea. 500-999 = .66 ea. 1000-4999 = .64 ea. call for pricing over 5,000. We have changed the design slightly that was previously posted on the web. I now have the new pictures up. Instead of just a 1/4 x 1/4" strip down the center of the top bar we have bevel cut this leaving about 3/16" flat. The bottom bar is solid.
    Thank You,
    Walter T. Kelley Co.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    2,280

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    mcooper, to answer your question about heating the wire...
    I've found the easiest way to use foundation and wire is to assemble the frame, then wire the frame. Then install the foundation into the wired frame, and I use kelley's Electric Embedder. Had to add a few more contacts for it to work efficiently, but it works. I found the deluxe eyelet tool to be useless, use the single instead. Its' faster. So if you use foundation, heating the wire is the quickest way for me to get it embedded.

    However, as Michael Bush points out, going foundationless, you don't embed the wires because there's no foundation. the bees draw the comb around the wires. And since I'm going foundationless, I now have an electric embedder for sale.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,322

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    If only I didn't have to pay shipping. I'll have to keep making my own from Dadant wedge frames. Takes about 10 seconds per top bar to rip off the edge at 45 degrees.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Bsupplier,

    I've looked at the new design and it looks better. Just one question, is the 'flat spot' at the bottom of the wedge 3/16 or is it 3/32? Also, what is the dimension of the thickness of the top bar above the wedge?

    thanks,

    fafrd

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Clarkson, KY. USA
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    We start beveling at 1/2".
    There will be a little variance on the flat. 3/16-1/4". There is plenty of beef still on the top bar.
    Thank You

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Keller, Tx
    Posts
    334

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Ross, when you want to order for next year we can combine and maybe get pallet rates!
    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    >There will be a little variance on the flat. 3/16-1/4" . . .

    Will a "wide" flat work?

    The frames I have made (and sold) in the past formed a sharp "V".
    Other info here suggests using Popsicle sticks in a "standard" frame. The flat created w/ the Popsicle sticks is very narrow.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Clarkson, KY. USA
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    I consulted with Michael Bush on this frame design. We think it will work fine.
    Thank You.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,311

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    I've used everything from a point to a fairly wide flat spot. The main thing is that there is a protrusion to follow and then they seem to follow that fine. If not then they don't. Mine usually had between 1/8" and 3/16" flat spot on them, although a few have been wider. Mostly I went with that because cutting a standard sized to bar turned out that way if I wanted to maintain a decent flat area on the ends of the top bar for the rests.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Shallowater, Texas, USA
    Posts
    355

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    I am constantly reminded of the huge learning curve in beekeeping. The idea of using foundationless frames is yet another example. I am interested in the concept of foundationless in my brood boxes, but want to stick with plastic foundation in wood frames in the honey supers. I am expanding to 50 hives this spring. However, I just invested in the woodenware and plastic Pierco foundation to make that expansion. That being said, I have questions for those of you experienced with foundationless frames:

    1. Can I use the deep wooden frames(top and bottom groove for plastic foundation) I have already purchased?

    2. If I can, can I rip the Pierco plastic foundation into starter strips and hot glue them into the top bar groove and/or the bottom bar groove? Would that provide a useabale starter if waxed?

    3. How long does it take(on average) for the bees to draw comb in a foundationless brood frame?

    4. Can hive bodies containing drawn foundationless frames be moved via truck or trailer, or is the comb too fragile without the stability of wires or plastic foundation?
    "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"...well that horse ain't got nothing on a bee.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Bsupplier (and Michael),

    thanks for the response but I have a couple additional questions:

    1/ I understand frm Michael Bush's website that he has made his 'V' shaped foundationless frames by modifying 'Kelley solid top bar frames' - do these new foundationless frames from Kelley's essentially add additional wood below the solid top bar frames or do they amount to the solid top bar frames with some wood removed from either side to form the protrusion?

    2/ I did not see any comment on the bottom bars associated with these new foundationless frames - can I assume that the bottom bars are solid?

    3/ I can not find the 'solid top bar frames' on the Kelley's website - can you tell me how they can be odered, how much they cost, and if there is any minimum order quantity?

    The good news for you is that I belive you are about to get some of my business - I want to place an order in the next few days for frames to get me through the season. The bad news is that I have the equiptment to make my own 'V' shaped foundationless frames from solid top bar frames in the way Michael Bush has recommended and I am not yet sure which way to go - solid top bar with custom modification or the new foundationless frames you have designed with Michael's help.

    Would appreciate your responses to the above 3 questions to help me reach a decision.

    -fafrd

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,311

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    >1/ I understand frm Michael Bush's website that he has made his 'V' shaped foundationless frames by modifying 'Kelley solid top bar frames' - do these new foundationless frames from Kelley's essentially add additional wood below the solid top bar frames or do they amount to the solid top bar frames with some wood removed from either side to form the protrusion?

    They are similar, but not identical, to what I made, in that they are cut from a regular top bar.

    >2/ I did not see any comment on the bottom bars associated with these new foundationless frames - can I assume that the bottom bars are solid?

    The ones I got were. I assume they still are.

    >3/ I can not find the 'solid top bar frames' on the Kelley's website - can you tell me how they can be odered, how much they cost, and if there is any minimum order quantity?

    I custom ordered mine. It was dependent on the quantity I was ordering and how busy they were a the time. I had to wait until the next run of top bars. I can't say if they will still agree to make them or not.

    >The good news for you is that I belive you are about to get some of my business - I want to place an order in the next few days for frames to get me through the season. The bad news is that I have the equiptment to make my own 'V' shaped foundationless frames from solid top bar frames in the way Michael Bush has recommended and I am not yet sure which way to go - solid top bar with custom modification or the new foundationless frames you have designed with Michael's help.

    You could call Kelley and ask about the solid ones. They sold them to me at the standard price, but I bought a thousand and had to wait until they got around to them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,292

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    The next time I am in need of additional wooden frames, I will, most likely purchase some of these new foundationless frames from Kelley's, along with any other frames I may need. I use many foundationless frames in my hives, but not exclusively. I have found Kelley frames to be some of the best made wooden frames, if not the very best wooden frames in the business. I can't remember a time when I've ever had even a single frame component from them fail or be unusable. No warping, no knots, no flaws of any kind (their Q.A. must be ruthless). The design of their frames and the tolerances of the wooden components is also exceptional.

    I may even try some of those frames with the grooves in the sidebars (I haven't seen any hive beetles here in the desert).

    I was also thinking that a router table might easily be set up to cut chamfers to create a "V" shape in the comb area of a top bar without affecting any other part of the top bars. They could even be cut at an angle less than 45 degrees. But, personally, I think the design Kelley has decided to produce will work just fine and I look forward to trying them out.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Michael,

    thaknks for the response. I think I am gong to go ahead with the new Kelley foundatinless frames and your involvement with the initiative is a big factor in my confidence to move forward.

    A couple more quick question for you. I am using deep frames and while I am not planning on extracting these frames and am thinking they will be used only for brood, one can never tell and so I am thinking that planning to assemble these frames in a way that they are strong enough to be extracted might be good foresight. So my questions:

    A/ Do you think the deep frames would need reinforcement of any kind for radial extraction (after wax hardening)?

    B/ Same question for tangential extraction?

    C/ If you think some reinforcement might be needed for extraction of deep foundationless frames, do you think a single horzontal bar/wire or a single vertical bar/wire would be better?

    D/ I am thiking to drill a couple 1/16" diameter 1/4" deep holes and put a piece of metal coathanger vertically down the center of the frame. If reinforcement of deep foundationless frames for extraction is needed, is this single vertical bar idea a good way to achieve that reinforcement? Do you think there will be any problems with it?

    Hopefully you are going to tell me that no reinforcement will be needed, but if it might, I have never messed around with all the wire reinforcement that all of the wax foundation beeks use all the time, and the vertical bar made from a piece of coathanger embedded between the top and bottm bars seems much easier and less expensive to me if it is not going to cause a problem.

    Advice appreciated.

    -fafrd

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,311

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    >A/ Do you think the deep frames would need reinforcement of any kind for radial extraction (after wax hardening)?

    I only have had a few deep foundationless as I run all mediums. I did not put any extra reinforcement in them. Charles Martin Simon used foundationless deeps all the time and said they required no additional support. Dean uses all deeps with no additional support. Both of them extract. But I think Dean uses the Tangential extractor.

    >B/ Same question for tangential extraction?

    Dean thinks they work fine.

    >C/ If you think some reinforcement might be needed for extraction of deep foundationless frames, do you think a single horzontal bar/wire or a single vertical bar/wire would be better?

    When I did the Dadant deep frames (11 1/4") I did put one horizontal in. My thinking was that I like the idea of being able too do cut comb from any frame or cut out queen cells and one horizontal doesn't get in the way much.

    >D/ I am thiking to drill a couple 1/16" diameter 1/4" deep holes and put a piece of metal coathanger vertically down the center of the frame. If reinforcement of deep foundationless frames for extraction is needed, is this single vertical bar idea a good way to achieve that reinforcement? Do you think there will be any problems with it?

    The purpose of wires is to keep the foundation from sagging until it is drawn. It was never to reinforce it for extraction. I don't think wires will stop a blowout if you crank it up too high nor do I think you should crank it up too high with or without wire.

    >Hopefully you are going to tell me that no reinforcement will be needed, but if it might, I have never messed around with all the wire reinforcement that all of the wax foundation beeks use all the time, and the vertical bar made from a piece of coathanger embedded between the top and bottm bars seems much easier and less expensive to me if it is not going to cause a problem.

    It's more useful during the time it's being drawn than after it's drawn. But it is useful during drawing. it helps support the comb in case of bumps when moving hives and in case you forget and turn it a little sideways... but once it's drawn and the wax has aged a bit, it's irrelevant.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Berkeley,California, USA
    Posts
    483

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Thans for the response Michael.

    Based on your inputs, I am going to move forward without reinforcement. I didn't realize that the wires were primarily to prevent sagging and not for reinforcement during extraction. Since I don't plan to move the hive and expect that any foundationless frames will be fully drawn and aged/hardened without significant disturbance, sounds like the wires/bars will not be needed in my case.

    In terms of sagging, if I run into it I can see why a horizontal wire/bar might be better (though with a vertical bar it should also help effectively reduce the frame width in half and s also reduce sagging if the bees attach thecomb to it as it is being drawn) - will tuck the idea in my back pocket in case I ever run int a probem with sagging.

    thanks again,

    -fafrd

    p.s. what did you mean by "in case your forget to turn it a little sideways"??? Turn what? The hive? The frame? Would appreciate to understand what you are referring to in case there is something I am unaware of.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Clarkson, KY. USA
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

    Hi Fafrd,
    Sorry I havent been able to respond sooner. I have been away from the office this last week. The foundationless frames top bar is cut from our blank top bar and does not have additional wood added. The bottom bar is a solid wood bottom bar.
    Thank You

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