Kelley's now sell foundationless frames

**Michael Bush** · 02-01-2010, 10:45 AM

When bees first start a foundationless comb it is only attached at the top. As they fill it out it eventually gets attached on the sides, and finally the bottom somewhat. When it is only attached to the top and if it is filled with nectar or honey, when you turn the frame flatways the weight of the honey will break off the unsupported comb. So, of course, you shouldn't do that. Let the frame hang on your index fingers and all is well. Turn it flat, and it breaks.

**fafrd** · 02-04-2010, 05:24 PM

Thanks for the response, Bsupplier. I just placed an order or 100 of the foundationless frames from Jeniffer - hope they get here soon!

I ordered them with the grooved side bars. On the fundationless frames I have been making myself, I like to provide a small wooden giuide down the side bar as well and have been cutting my own grooves for that reason. The fact that Kelley's can provide sidebars with grooves pre-cut was icing on the cake!

Thanks fr your help and I will let you know how they work out for me once I get the first foundationless frames into my hive...

-fafrd

**fafrd** · 02-04-2010, 05:36 PM

Michael,

I have been using my first foundationless frames (modified standard medium frames) in my hive over the past couple weeks and I am amazed at how quickly the bees draw on the foundationless frames. I put a medium foundationless frame into the center of the brood chamber this Saturday, and by yesterday (the next time I checked - 4 days later) it was already more than 2/3 drawn with two large intersecting inverted 'U' shapes that spanned the entire width of the top bar and came to within a beespace of the bottom bar.

These feral bees have been incredibly slow to draw on either PF-120s or Wood+wax smal cell foundation frames, and to be honest I had given up and had moved to fully drawn plastic small-cell frames (cut-down HSC), which the bees took to immediately.

Now since I have experimented with foundationless frames, I have understood that the problem was not that they did not want to draw comb, the problem was that they wanted to draw comb their own way, and not draw it on the man-made foundation (of any type).

Am looking forward to inspecting the comb structure of the foundationless combs later in the season and see how it compares to the very regular and controlled comb pattern using foundation...

-fafrd

**Michael Bush** · 02-04-2010, 10:59 PM

You hit the nail on the head. The bees want to build what they want to build and not what we want them to build, which is why they build foundationless quicker than wax foundation, let alone plastic foundation...

**Logan** · 03-20-2010, 12:09 AM

I just ordered 100 of these frames, and am looking forward to giving them a try. They have arrived and look to be nice quality frames.

My issue is that I want to try narrow frames as well--to put 9 frames in an 8 frame medium box. Is there a simple, direct, and inexpensive way to shave exactly 1/16" inch off each side of the side bars of the frame? This would reduce the frame by 1/8, leaving a 1-1/4 inch frame, spaced nicely on center ready for a foundation-less hive.

I don't have much woodworking experience, and I don't have many tools. I don't want to invest a lot of money either. Can you do this with some sort of a hand plane or power tool?

**Joseph Clemens** · 03-20-2010, 09:06 AM

Logan,
I have been trimming my wooden end bars down to 1-1/4" width by trimming off 1/16" from each side of the end bars before assembly of the frames. I use my band saw to accomplish this feat - it works very well. With just a little more difficulty, I'm sure it could be accomplished with a table saw, though I would recommend some kind of jig be used to reduce the chance of injury. I just purchased a 2" long 1/2" diameter straight cutter bit for my router table so I can use my router table as a jointer in order to trim 1/16" off each side of my PF120 end bars. I'm sure it would work just as well with wooden end bars.

No doubt there are many other ways to accomplish the task of trimming end bars to a 1-1/4" width.

**paul.h** · 03-20-2010, 09:31 AM

I have this and it should work well if you can clamp your frame somehow.The depth of cut is adjustable.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91062

Originally Posted by Logan

I just ordered 100 of these frames, and am looking forward to giving them a try. They have arrived and look to be nice quality frames.

My issue is that I want to try narrow frames as well--to put 9 frames in an 8 frame medium box. Is there a simple, direct, and inexpensive way to shave exactly 1/16" inch off each side of the side bars of the frame? This would reduce the frame by 1/8, leaving a 1-1/4 inch frame, spaced nicely on center ready for a foundation-less hive.

I don't have much woodworking experience, and I don't have many tools. I don't want to invest a lot of money either. Can you do this with some sort of a hand plane or power tool?

**Logan** · 03-20-2010, 09:53 AM

A cheap hand planer looks like it would do the job, thanks for the link to HarborFreight. I'll give that a try. I'm sure my local hardware store sells clamps that I can use to get several together at the same time. Thanks!

**Hayseed** · 03-21-2010, 05:03 AM

I've used MBs wedge design for several years. Bees draw very nice comb from them - under one condition - I need to place one foundationless frame between two fully drawn (preferrably capped) frames. Makes beautiful cut comb.

One question: I seem to be getting a large percentage of drone comb built lately in foundationless. Do you think it's related to time of year, breed of bees, spacing, or what?

Dale