Today's Dead outs - CCD?

[odfrank]

First hive was by it self, large cell, homeowner said it absconded on Thanksgiving day, he saw swarm fly off. No signs of bees or brood, ample stores left in both brood chambers. Was last years feral bait hive, produced good crop this year, but probably had swarmed also.



Second hive, Small Cell, on my trailer, with 20 LC hives, other SC hive on other side of trailer is thriving even after being divided. Also left full frames of stores and new honey.

[beemandan]

These sound more like absconds than CCD. One of the traits common to CCD is that the queen and a small cluster of young bees are left behind. In yours, I don't see that. They were empty of bees...right?
I understand the African bees have a propensity to abscond. Are you in an area that has those genetics? Mainly, I was thinking about the feral colony.

[Wil]

By the pictures its hard to tell, was there any bees at all in the hive?

Have you had the honey tested for any chemicals or toxins?

[woodmann98]

I had five of my twelve hives like that, but in all of them i had maybe a softball size of bees dead on the frame. And maybe about 300 to 500 hundred dead bees on the sbb. i looked at all the bees, and did not see a queen. thought maybe she died a while back. lots of honey and pollin. three of the five hives second year packages, the other two where this springs swarms. the other seven are strong. i'm sure its something i did wrong, still learning.

[odfrank]

>was there any bees at all in the hive?
not a bee and no sign of die off.

> i'm sure its something i did wrong, still learning.
It's nothing you did wrong. It's CCD which is the term for the mysterious die off of the last few years. I have been at it for 40 years and only seen it the last few years.

[Beeslave]

With no brood left behind, it seems that they were queenless. Then the bees that were left vacated and took up residence with a hive that was queenright. I've heard that contaminated food within the hive will cause them to abscond. I had my share of hives that looked like yours in Oct., no bees, queen, or brood. Some had a queen and a couple hundred bees and lots/plenty of pollen and honey.

[HVH]

If they abscond, won't they come back to rob out the honey?

[beemandan]

Woodman99, I think you and odfrank may have different problems. If I’m not mistaken, Calaveras county is in the Sierra foothills….right? Cool days and cold nights right now. Those clusters of a few hundred bees may not have been enough to maintain warmth. If so, was there something you might have done? Maybe. It’s part of the learning process. If you don’t know why they failed, how can you possibly correct it next time? In late summer make sure they’re queenright and making brood. Check for varroa and treat as necessary. Make sure they have ample stores. As the weather cools make sure the populations are big enough to survive. Find out from other local beeks what their experience has been. Just my opinion.

[dthompson]

odfrank, there are some things not typical, the group abscond and only 2/20?

When it's warm enough do a ramp test perhaps
Pick a hive close to an abscond, perhaps not entirely healthy and
set up a ramp as per hiving a swarm
Shake 3 frames onto the ramp
You are interested in the laggards, the last 10%
Do they show symptoms? (STR - sore tummy rub, ankle rub, (rear) feet too close together?)
If so, yes this is viral ccd
My bees have had this for 3 years, it's a pain
Lots more work, much less success. Lucky I only have few hives

dave

[odfrank]

odfrank,
If so, yes this is viral ccd

I have heard of DWV, but not viral CCD. Is there a cure? The bees do show those symptoms.

[dthompson]

>The bees do show those symptoms.
Do you mean STR, ankle rub etc or what?

Most don't know if ccd is caused by virus, nosema, pesticides, or poor pollen
Some think that it is all of these factors
In my case I am sure (99.9%) that it is viral (only)
(because of neulogical symptoms and sensitivity to vitamin C)
Lots of C -- 10-20 gm/year/hive, more is better than less
I've written lots at bee-l, check archives there, and here as well

dave

[Bens-Bees]

This can not be CCD. CCD has a three primary indicators,

one is that there is brood left behind,

two is that there are a few live bees (very few) and no dead ones left behind,

three is that the leftover honey will not be eaten by other bees, even if left out in the sun in a busy bee yard.

Anything that doesn't hold up to all of those three indicators is not CCD. There are many other things that kill colonies or cause them to abscond, and you can't fix a problem you don't know about, so it is in everyone's best interests if they don't just blanket blame CCD for every deadout that comes their way and takes some time to figure out what's really going on. Every dead colony has a story to tell, and most beekeepers are well equipped to discover the cause of death if they're willing to take the time to examine all the evidence and possible causes that fit that evidence before jumping to conclusions.

In this case I think beemandan probably hit the nail on the head here because everything in your description fits with his explanation. If that is the case, then what you could have done is requeen (had you known earlier that is, but even knowing after the fact, you can build upon that to keep your eye out for the signs and requeen the next colony early). There may be other explanations as well, and a little bit of forensics work (having the honey tested) could reveal something else.

[BEES4U]

We have had these descriptions of a hives's demise for many years. The 1st written and published books describe these conditions.
Winter. Spring. Summer, and Fall Dwindling
Eucalyptus poisoning
________________________
Later on we included this term:

Disappearing Disease. Do you recal what caused it?
Regards,
Ernie

[dthompson]

> one is that there is brood left behind,
And if the ccd crisis (abscond urge) happens in mid Nov what will you find?
Or are you saying that ccd can only happen in summer?

>There are many other things that kill colonies or cause them to abscond,
In the 25 years "before" (ccd) I don't recall ANY absconds
In the past 3 years I have had ~30 absconds and 60-80% winterkill
This is not anything I have seen before, what a pain

dave
PS No absconds since April, ~ 14 gms C fed(/hive)
Somewhat indicative

[odfrank]

We have had these descriptions of a hives's demise for many years. The 1st written and published books describe these conditions.
Winter. Spring. Summer, and Fall Dwindling
Eucalyptus poisoning
Ernie

EUCALYPTUS POISONING??? huh?/?

[Bens-Bees]

And if the ccd crisis (abscond urge) happens in mid Nov what will you find?

First, absconding is not the same as CCD, as the queen is frequently still found along with a few bees in a CCD colony. Second, you will find the same thing.

Or are you saying that ccd can only happen in summer?

Not at all.

In the 25 years "before" (ccd) I don't recall ANY absconds
In the past 3 years I have had ~30 absconds and 60-80% winterkill
This is not anything I have seen before, what a pain

I haven't ever seen AFB before, but that doesn't mean I should blame it on CCD if I ever do encounter it. Not recognising something is all the more reason to look deeper into the cause of it than to simply brush it off as something you can't do anything about.

[dthompson]

odfrank I'm gonna assume that's an implicit rather than explicit yes

It's funny that noone wants to talk about the "lewd" movement of their
bees legs, like it's an unmentionable, i'm not sure why

Not one person have confirmed or refuted!! my list of symptoms
why?

Anyway, if you have ccd then pay attention to rear legs
You will see symptoms

This does little good, the bees still have ccd
You have my sympathy, hell I have my sympathy

dave

[beemandan]

Do your bees have CCD? Beats me. I'm not arguing. I will repeat, though, that bees with African genetics are said to have a propensity to abscond....in any season.
Best of luck, in any case.

[RDY-B]

IN the third pic is that ENTOMBED pollen -clean out a cell is it propolise covering brick red pollen RDY-B

[Beeslave]

Entombed pollen! What does that indicate? I was seeing that in my deadouts this last summer and fall.