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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Anderson County, Texas
    Posts
    1,264

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    Hmmm, does small cell really work? I am going to assume here.

    Jennifer Barry mentions the Brazilian study by Dr. David De Jong. I will give a summary of the results of that study below, but Brazil has had destructor a lot longer than we have. Also, you might do a Google on Dr. David De Jong and put small cell and other research items and you might be surprised.

    I don't know how to make this work out in chart form so please bear with me.

    Results of Dr. De Jongs study in which 3 different cell sizes were place in the same colonies:
    a=% of workers infested
    b=# of mites per 100 bees
    c=% increase in mite infestation from "1a and 1b"

    1. 4.8 cell size-(a)=10.3; (b)=15.6;

    2. 5.16 cell size-(a)=13.95; (b)=17.7; (c) +35.4%, +13.5%

    3. 5.27 cell size-(a)=19.2; (b)=24.4 (c) +86.4%, +56.4%

    Don't keep saying there aren't any studies that show that small cell works.

    I will say this, I have a completely different way of looking at things than Jennifer, not to say I am right and she is wrong.

    First, she touts GMO (genitic modification of organisms) as being successful. I don't agree at all.

    Second, I have listened to her assumptions and her analysis of her results, and how the study was conducted, and I personally don't think it shows anything reliable nor useful. No disrespect to Jennifer but we simply have a different way at looking, viewing, and anylising things.

    Kindest Regards
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Anderson County, Texas
    Posts
    1,264

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    Below please see some interesting quotes from Dr. David De Jong related to this study. I pulled these off the Internet and will be looking for more.

    "Varroa mite infestation is also increased in colonies that are closer together, as is the potential for other diseases like American foulbrood. This is because weak colonies become reservoirs for parasites and diseases that then are easily spread to nearby hives by robbing or drifting bees. Development of susceptible colonies is encouraged by beekeepers using both antibiotics for bacterial control and chemicals to lower mite populations. One of the lessons of Brazil is that a low population of mites can be tolerated by honey bees indefinitely without treatment. The Africanized honey bee is an example of how bees being left alone can and have come to terms with challenges in their environment posed by diseases and pests. There are many resistance mechanisms in healthy bees, but these are all too often ignored and compromised by beekeepers in search of a “quick fix.”
    When looking at how honey bees resist diseases and parasites, one cannot ignore the effect of cell size, Dr. De Jong concluded. There is some anecdotal evidence that this can play a significant role in colony health, but little formal research to confirm the idea. Nevertheless, in Brazil the use of smaller cell size foundation (4.7 to 4.9 millimeter cell width) is recommended because it is considered the “normal” size of Africanized honey bee comb. Most regular foundation has cells 5.2 to 5.4 millimeters in width and often results in higher mite infestation in the colonies. Dr. De Jong urged beekeepers and researchers not to ignore the significance of cell size in overall colony health.
    " (emphasis added)
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    oneida ny usa
    Posts
    143

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    Why is it everything has to become overcomplicated? If you want to know if small cell works, buy some small cell foundation or go foundationless and try it yourself and who cares what the scientists and college professors who dabble in bees say.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    Quote Originally Posted by michael-bees View Post
    If you want to know if small cell works, buy some small cell foundation or go foundationless and try it yourself
    I did and it didn't.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    oneida ny usa
    Posts
    143

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I did and it didn't.
    OK so i guess its
    1 for sc
    1 against sc

    Works in ny.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,409

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    >"Varroa mite infestation is also increased in colonies that are closer together, as is the potential for other diseases..."

    As we keep saying...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    miami florida usa
    Posts
    3

    Thumbs Up Re: Does small cell really work?

    Hello everyone first posting. Have been reading and learning from all of you for about three years now. Began my bee experience out of concern my local commercial guy would not be able to survive the loses of ccd. We have tropical fruit trees (Miami Florida) and need pollinators. I started with 5.4 wired frames with wired foundation. My first year loses were devastating even with my mentors help ( 40 year veteran bee keeper ) Have experimented with plastic frames, the standard woodware with 5.4, frames with triangle guide on top, frames with nothing at all and currently have settled to 4.9 starter strips held in place by wedge. The strips I cut as wide as the bottom board on the frames get about ten strips from each sheet of foundation. Although I own an extractor I find that for my 50 hives the wireless frames to cut crush and strain is my preference. This way I also harvest wax. This past year I lost only 5 out of my 50 hives more than made up with swarms from my own bees. Bought some chemicals early on never used them refused to mix poison with the bees food and possibly honey I would be consuming. My biggest problem as of late is keeping these guys from swarming. Currently trying checkering and inverting brood chambers. So for what is worth my observation is 4.9 is the way to go. My opinion smaller bees more bees per box,less fuel per flight, less days in frames so more space for more bees, smaller bee more nimble in and out of flowers better pollination. Some say smaller bee fly further, easier to go through excluder, easier to locate queen in box, more wall per frame less honey but more wax, and last but not least smaller bee gets in your suit easier and will keep arthritis away ha ha.
    PtL
    Sg10

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    nelsonville, ohio
    Posts
    403

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    the way i read it also says it has to do with the fact that the smaller size cells leave less room for the varoa/multipal varroa to grow.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Glencoe, Okla USA
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    SG10,
    I would like more of the particulars about your use of small cell.

    I am confussed please explain how you are attaching the starter strips.

    Are these starter strips 1" wide by full frame length nailed in at the top?

    or 1" wide by frame height nailed in the middle of the frame top to bottom?

    Are the starter strips you use 4.9mm or 5.4mm or some other size?

    Are you using screened bottom boards?

    Are mites or SHB a problem in your area?

    What variety of bees are you using?

    How much honey do you average per hive?
    Last edited by Myron Denny; 01-03-2010 at 10:15 PM. Reason: address not needed

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    miami florida usa
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Does small cell really work?

    I cut strips using a thin sharp knife using the bottom board of a frame as guide this will give you about 10 strips per sheet of foundation. I first went from 5.4 to 4.9 found some hives would draw out the smaller size and others would make a mess or even draw larger on top of the 4.9 strips. The swarms I place directly on 4.9 with very good results not only do they start well on the smaller foundation but the frames with strips keeps them in the box. I think they rather stay in a box with strips because it allows them to stay together as a swarm on a tree not in small groups behind sheets of foundation. As for the trouble makers I put in 5.1 and once they gut use to that went to 4.9. I attach the strips on top using the wedge just as if I was attaching a full sheet. I found that if its a super works better just above the brood chamber in some cases when i placed them to far up they started drawing from the bottom of the frame and then tabled over half way up. Also a single drawn frame in the middle of a fresh box is a great help to get them up and working properly. It is also important to have level hives this will aid the bees to keep the cone centered on the frames. once you have your bees on this system with no wires when you harvest each frame you cut out the cone leaving two or three rouse on top and you don't need to clean out frames to install new strips they will start drawing right below the strip of cone you left on your frames.
    We do have a mite problem and a beetle problem specially beetles see my post about bottom boards and beetles at http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...oto=nextoldest.
    As for the variety of bees reading some of the materials from the great old timers that pour out there experience for us new comers to benefit from thier knowledge, I learned one thing well. If you want good bees that will survive the widest gene pool will give you the best result. So I gut queens from Hawaii,texas even Russian artificially inseminated queens. I also picked up any and all swarms and hives in trees and buildings. I even picked up a hive that I later determined were africanized. They were mean when I picked them up but when i gut them home opened the box and it emptied out and all gut on me. It took a while of walking around to get them off, I waited for night fall and sealed the box and burt them that very night.
    As for the yield per box I keep good records I use a small recorder and record all info on hives as I work on them and keep a excel file with all the info but have never averaged the yield, to many irons on the fire.
    So again I say I loose very little hives have never used treatments of any kind , keep my hives in an area with Beatles and mites and occasional afb .
    I credit my success firts to 4.9, then to screen bottom boards with hive beetles traps below, hives off the ground with water barriers on all four legs of the stand a good wide gene pool and burn any dead hive that I cant be sure what caused its demise.
    Side note lost one last week with characteristics of ccd, emerging brood left behind no adult bees in box some stores and very litle betlle or wax moth action. Hope not an oman of things to come.

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