Hi:
I realize this might be a little early for this question but here goes anyway. In the spring when you checkerboard a hive, reading between the lines of post here, you use drawn comb. What if you don't have drawn comb? I tried using foundation and the bees just extended the combs, in the area where there was no brood, on either side of the foundation and man what a mess I had. I use only 8 frame medium boxes with 3 boxes as the brood area. Do you checkerboard any boxes above there? There seems to always be brood in the 4th box
Thanks
Barney
I have begun my checkerboarding for this season! Nice to get back in and see the bees. Looks like they are a little behind this year, I assume due to the cold snap. I am waiting anxiously to see if the red maple bloom was affected by the cold weather, as I have no experience with the temperatures we had for so many consecutive days.
Hey SC - apparently I worried for nothing. The maples are blooming nicely! I put some honey out just to see if the bees would be interested - they ignored it. Must be a pretty good flow going on!
Well, I'm connected. You can thank the Bell system for the break in my prattling for last week.
fafrd:
If you know when to expect repro c/o on your bee schedule (about 3 weeks prior to the new wax of main flow) the CBed colony shifts from swarm ambition to SS at that time.
Havn't monitored for an answer to the consumption vs moving of honey question. But the feed band above the brood expansion dome is maintained in the formally empty frames. Can't tell from observation whether the feed band is maintained by moving honey or is filled with incoming nectar. But am inclined to guess that incoming nectar is the source, since that frame continues to fill with nectar to the top and beyond.
thanks for the response. I've asked local beekeepers about the schedule for 'White Wax' in this region, and here is the answer I recieved (today):
> White wax begins with the nectar flow, Eucalyptus has been blooming and
> is a sign that new baby bees will be hatching more and more, since they
> make the wax you'll soon see the "freshing" of white wax. I believe we'll be
> seeing swarms in about 3 weeks so get your equipment ready!
Does this mean that I am now three weeks from white wax in this area, and if so, when should I plan to checkerboard?
Late winter here is now - Feb and March. The temps fluctuate from teens to 50s in Feb but mostly range in 20s to 40s. The bees get air time on warmer swings in late Feb. Warming through March, but with still frosty mornings all month. Last frost about 1 April.
Today, noticed the daffadils are putting up leaves - will bloom before the end of the month. Snow and ice last weekend, but for some species winter is over.....Dates not relevant in Vermont, but the indicators might help. Also note that April 1 is into the local repro swarm issue period.
Didn't answer the whole question. I generally do not work in a hive at less than 50 degrees. At cluster breaking temps they can reorganize when I'm done. If the forcast is for say 55, the temp will move through 50 about 10 AM and fall back through 50 about 3 PM. I work colonies in the first half of that period (noonish) and quit to allow them to recover.
Now, you're pinning me down. It's one of those 'do as I sayand not as I do" things. I've been known to CB in a drizzling rain in the low 40s. Takes a fairly delicate touch to keep from disrupting the cluster. So, we can't recommend that for everybody. You can slam/bang around some with the recommendation.
Walt
We usually have at least 50 or above by CB time. A lot of times in the low 60's. I fully dress out because usually the bees get airborne and very nasty.
I use smoke, that may be my mistake. It may break the cluster and disturb them to much. Never thought of it that way.
Walt,
I know by reading your articles that you put your colonies to work after the main flow drawing comb. My problem is that I have 15 production hives and all of my drawn comb is now sitting on them cbed. I have accomplished my goal to get all my hives cbed but my problem is supering using foundation for the main flow. How does one go about this in your opinion?
Glad you asked. Gives me the opportunity to make a couple more observations not found elsewhere. Take the following with a grain or shaker full of salt.
It would have been better from a production standpoint if you had only CBed some of the colonies and kept part of the drawn comb for overhead storage of nectar during the build up period. Too late now. When devoping the system, never had enough drawn comb myself. Understand the problem, but don"t have a good answer for a way out.
Established colonies will not do much with foundation until the main flow starts. (no wax makers) If you manage to get them to repro c/o with the present config, you will be okay. F at the top will get drawn at the beginning of main flow. (after the natural lull)
The grain of salt part:
For the colony that expanded the brood nest as far as they dared with the overhead CBed, and started brood nest reduction, with about 3 weeks to repro c/off, is likely to swarm. Early in the backfilling process of swarm preps, try inserting a super of F in, or immediatly above, the brood nest. No guarantees, but it will get their attention, and may delay swarm preps to repro c/o.
Should they swarm in spite of your efforts, all is not lost. Assuming you have gotten more brood volume as a result of CB, you are better off for it. Evidence suggests that the strong CBed colony does not halve the population with the swarm. That may be essentialy true for standard management, but the CBed colony seems to only issue an amount of bees that they "think" is adequate for establishment. A normal swarm. That means that the colony remaining bees are more more populous and can improve production over standard management. This tidbit has not been reported before, and was not seen in my colonies, but by colonies of a friend who ran out of drawn comb to keep up with his bees when CBed.
I CB'ed yesterday while we had a break in the rain and the temps were in the low 60's. Good thing rain and low temps again today.
I had the same predicament as above -- just can't seem to build up enough drawn comb mainly because I incrased my colonies from 6 to ten last year.
I managed to CB four of the 10 yesterday. Not sure what the strength should look like now . I estimate three to four frames of bees. One colony had 1 1/2 supers of honey. The others about 3/4 super of honey each.
The colony that had the most entered winter with a poles shallow on bottom, which is now empty as Walt says and two supers of honey. The others with 1 1/2 or so supers of honey.
I cb'ed the colonies that only about a super of honey left at this point. It is what I did the first year I tried CB'ing before the two super recommendation.
I have four supers of drawn foundation left and started to CB one more colony. I decided to hold it back. Glad I did now. Hope the one super for each colony gets me to white wax which should be about the second week of April based on the last few years. Based on current indications we are about a week behind the three previous years and white wax may not be until the third week of April. I am basing this on Red Maple Bloom.
Well if I see swarm cells or backfilling of nectar in brood I guess I could always make some nucs with the extra brood volume. I was planning on expanding my operation to about 40 colonies after I pull my honey in late May or June anyway. That's why I like this manipulation so well because it gives me endless possibilities with the extra brood volume thanks Walt.
Should have mentioned that you can improve your drawn comb inventory by inserting a box of foundation at the top of the brood and below the accumulated nectar/honey. It's extra work, but the colony "wants" honey immediately above the brood nest. On the trailing edge of the flow, they will draw F above the brood nest when they will ignore F added at the top. It might pay you "bottom super" with F all the way through the main flow. Have not done that - speculation.
Walt
I understand that you checkerboard when elms bloom. Are there any other plants that bloom at the same time?
Elms have all died here from dutch elm disease.
Thanks
Around here, silver maple and elm trees usually are within a week or two of each other. You can also go to Dave's link http://www.drobbins.net/bees/blooms.html and select a zip code close to yours, then click the "get blooms" button. This will let you see what bloomed last year around your area. Hope that helps some.
I did try "bottom supering" last year with outstanding results. The colony developed into a monster hive and produced 8 boxes of honey before I got behind and they swarmed in late June. But that is OK. The major flow is over by that time and they have enough time to rebuild and go into winter. At one point, in a particularly good flow, that one hive filled 2 supers in 2 weeks.
Will definintely be doing that again this year. -- Fuzzy
Well, I just finished reading all 18 pages of the thread and I believe I still have some questions for Walt. So here they go.
I assume that CB is not an issue for the beginner with a starting hive because first year, the bees will be basically building up their broodnest. Each time the box gets filled to about 8th frame, I will add another body/super for them to continue filling it up with new comb, larvae and honey. Hopefully by the end of the year I will be able to have 3 medium bodies for bees to winter in.
So here is my first question. Let's say in March I CBed my hive. Am I to feed them sugar to help with expansion or make them use the winter reserves untill those are done. This is not a clear issue to me, becuase since I'll be moving frames all over the place I will not know which ones are honey frames and which ones are converted sugar frames. With some much empty comb all over the hive, how would I differenciate which honey is harvestable for my use.
Second question. What happens when God smiles at you and you have loads of nectar coming in. How do you add more suppers to honey collection. From the pictures I've seen I basically have 2 alternating suppers and 1 empty supper over the alternating supers. What if they fill up all these suppers, what is the method for adding new supers? Maybe the expectation is to harvest honey and rearrange in the CB style. In addtion, what should be the structure for the main late summer flow? I am not clear about that.
Third, if I have a queen that decides to build vertically, am I to rearrange her brood structure and force her into the lower brood box, while CBing the rest of the hive?
Last, usually the outlying frames in the brood box are honey stores. In CB methodology, does it make sence to move that honey up, or should I just leave it as is for nurse bees to consume to feed larvae.
Just to clear up some assumption I am planning to use all med, 10 frame bodies. Live in Pacific NW where the current temperatures are nice 40-50F, but March and April can give some nasty winds, hales and rains.
Anybody that waded through all that stuff earned an answer.
You are correct in that 2nd year colonies are tough to keep from swarming.
The beginner beek, with only foundation to work with is handicapped in what he can do in the way of swarm prevention. The overwintered colony perceives foundation and drawn comb quite differently. There is, however, a period in late winter when the 2nd year colony DOES recognize foundation as usable space and developes early wax making to start drawing the foundation. We have only seen this a few times, and are not well versed in the reliability of making it happen. The cases we have seen were starter colonies overwintered in a single deep. Prior to the swarm prep period a deep of foundation was added above the overwintered deep. We concluded that the surplus bees, which normally collect at the top of the cluster, spilled over into the added deep of foundation. With the cluster enfolding the foundation, colony perception was improved to the point that the colonies generated wax makers ahead of their normal schedule. They grew the broodnest into the added deep. Some swarmed, and some superseded. Don't think I have reported this material before, but is included here for anyone who might be interested in studying the concept further.
I think the subject should be investigated further and I'm not able.
To the questions:
(1) An under-published feature of colony internal operations is their penchent for replacing last years honey with fresh honey this season. The capped honey reserve is protected through the swarm prep period by feeding on incoming nectar. At the end of the swarm prep period, and coming up on peak local forage availability, the colony emphasis shifts to consumption of the old honey and replacement with this season's nectar.
Applying this to the question - there is not likely going to be any of last season's honey/feed at harvest time this season. No need to keep track of last season's frames.
(2)If you get the desired effects of CB, all of the boxes involved in the manipulation will contain the expanded broodnest. Since we do not disrupt the broodnest, supers are added at the top. The second requirement of CB is to maintain empty space at the top - drawn comb until the start of new wax at main flow, then foundation is okay.
(3) We have only seen smokestacking in one season here (2 of 20). I later wished that I had consolidated the brood. The colonies were already 7 feet tall. If we had encountered the situation again, we would be prepared to consolidate - honey at outside, pollen 2nd frame in, and brood between.
(L) That frame of honey at the outside of a brood chamber is a comfort factor in the makeup of the broodnest. In keeping with our aversion to broodnest disruption, we leave it alone. You can do whatever you choose.
Thank you Walt. I was hoping you'd be notified when I posted, looks like it worked.
This is the critical element that I missed in CB. All of the rearrangements are for construction of the new brood nest. I originally thought that all of the construction was to prevent swarming and for bees to fill the empty comb with spring honey. So once the nectar flow starts I can add supers with foundation on top of the checkerboarded hive for harvestable honey. The wax makers will draw it out and fill up with. What will go on bellow that is basically bee's concern. (1)Would I wait untill the the CBed empty comb in the top is filled with honey before I place my super with foundation?
In the not-perfect world, how would I know if I need to feed syrup in the spring to CBed hive. (2) Would I regularly check the hive to ensure that it has honey for the bees, or offer the syrup and see if they take it. I am concerned because I am opening up the space above for bees to expand, last thing I need to do is to plug up that space with sugar syrup and undo all of my work.
I am sorry for loading you up with all of that, but if I can see the process in my head then I can be very effective in implementing it.
By the way, thank you for the published material in the Point of View. Very interesting, informative and understandable.
Adjusting your wording some: The results of the manip. is not to generate a "new" brood nest, but to open the overhead capped honey to encourage further broodnest expansion. That barrier of capped honey limits expansion and starts swarm preps (backfilling.) The broodnest simply continues to expand upward and increase in total volume for another brood cycle. Going into the main flow, the top of the broodnest recedes with incoming honey storage. When the colony gets it right, the broodnest is back where it started at mid season and the area of the CB manipulation is filled with harvestable honey.
Re late winter feeding:
We do not believe the propaganda on "stimulative" feeding. We tried it (all up for two years) and could see no gain for the extra work and expense. There may be some areas of the country with poor early season field nectar, where some benefit is derived, but not here. But that's not what you asked.
Typically, within a couple weeks of the CB manip, the colony will be storing nectar in the alternate frames of empty comb. That storage starts as soon as the cluster covers some of those empty cells. You would have to be desparate for something to waste your time and money on to feed syrup when it's obvious that the colony is storing field nectar. Locally, we get a couple supers of raw nectar accumulated during the swarm prep period.
Wow, I just skimmed through this entire thread and I'm almost cross-eyed at this point. Lots of stuff!! :lookout:
One question I still have (and I apologize if I missed the answer) is, what does one do with the frames of honey that have been replaced with the empty comb? Let the bees have them above the inner cover to clean out? Thanks!
I will go out on a limb, being only student of Walt's findings, but if you have one super of winter honey, you take positions 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 and move them up into the super with empty comb, and take displaced empty comb and move it down to fill the void just created in the honey super. Just make sure that the frames are directly over each other as not to create traffic bottlenecks as bees go up between these supers. Then place another set of empty comb on top of the two checherboarded supers. THat should break the honey ceiling and provide ample space for expansion of the broodnest. After the swarm cut off (c/o) date, the bees will backfill most of the "checkerboarded" broodnest with nectar, ending down in the original deep brood box that they started with in the winter.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Beesource Beekeeping Forums
1.8M posts
54.7K members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to beekeeping, bee owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, honey production, health, behavior, hives, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!