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Checkerboarding

108K views 297 replies 74 participants last post by  wcubed 
#1 ·
Hi:
I realize this might be a little early for this question but here goes anyway. In the spring when you checkerboard a hive, reading between the lines of post here, you use drawn comb. What if you don't have drawn comb? I tried using foundation and the bees just extended the combs, in the area where there was no brood, on either side of the foundation and man what a mess I had. I use only 8 frame medium boxes with 3 boxes as the brood area. Do you checkerboard any boxes above there? There seems to always be brood in the 4th box
Thanks
Barney
 
#61 ·
Nice pic. I don't ever see that level of crowding here - maybe as bad as the center unit but nowhere near as bad as the outside hives. And only then in very hot weather. You're lucky you can get away with that. My excess bees would be settled on a tree limb.
This is an interesting comment. I'm assuming the pics are after harvest and the comment refers to CB hives after also.
Do you think these population differences have an effect on stored honey before winter clustering comparing the two systems? In what way if any?
Thanks
 
#62 · (Edited by Moderator)
I can only speak on beekeeping in my area of northern NY/VT. The photo was obviously in August...the day after I harvested the main crop. Took 150 pound avg. Had to add two supers for the fall flow.

My intention in posting the photo was to show what kind of population it takes in my area to gather a big crop. It was stated that CB'd colonies have some sort of "contraction of the broodnest prior to repro c/o date." And that was in some way necessary for the bees?

I don't understand, either. But I do know that I don't want my broodnests to contract in the buildup season. My season is short enough.

I don't know the populations of WW's colonies. You've seen mine. I figure the larger the population at the right time the better. Leads to bit crops like last year at the Chilton yard...4600 lbs from 21 colonies.
 
#64 ·
W to the power of three, thank you for calmly answering M. Palmers concerns. I believe you have found a method, that for what ever reasons, works for you. I, like M. Palmer, wonder about it's applicability for northern locations. We winter, and summer, in one deep, and do not have your "honey dome" problem. We do not do "reversals". We manipulate combs every 12-14 days in the spring/early summer, and clip queens, so that it is known if the hive attempted to swarm. We do not believe we have a significant number of swarms, and do not believe we have a significant number of queens "slack off' to prepare to swarm. Like M. Palmer, we have the goal of maximum bees, when the white sweet clover blooms. And yes, the really popullose(sp?) hives are needed, expescially(sp?) this year.

What are we doing wrong? Heavy manipulation is supposed to be bad, but yet our populations, swarm control, and honey production seem as good/or better/ as those around us. We have records from the 1940's, using the same system, so we have been doing it wrong for a long time.

Roland and Christian
Linden Apiary
 
#66 ·
Sorry Michael. I left out one important word in my question.

Do you think these population differences have an effect on stored honey used before winter clustering comparing the two systems?
I can see why you would want to have your population growing late in the year to catch the fall crop. The reason I ask the question is more to do with my area.
The main nectar flow which starts about the beginning of June here is done about the middle of July. Anything after that just keeps them out of their winter stores. We harvest mid August. If I had hives like in your pics here in August I would worry they would clean their winter stores out before we got into winter.
Here I think a drop in brooding starting part way through the main flow would be ideal.
Lots of the guy's reverse boxes around here. I'm not sure if it's a manipulation that works as well here as in your area. Maybe just has to be tailored for the location. I don't know. Our harvests range from 40lb to 80lbs so not a great honey area.

Thanks again.
 
#68 · (Edited)
Re: Checkboarding

Steve717,

[QUOTE=You cannot use foundation for checkerboarding; the bees need the empty comb to allow the queen to lay eggs and the workers to store nectar.

Your post has cleared up a lot of questions in a very understandable format. Sometimes it's hard to viualize these things. I know that shallows with drawn comb is the what you use to CB, but what if you don't have any shallow with drawn comb? It seems one has to start somewhere? I've thought abot cutting down deep frames into shallow frames but that's a task I'm not anxious to do. What would you recommnd?
 
#84 ·
Re: Checkboarding

Steve717,

You cannot use foundation for checkerboarding; the bees need the empty comb to allow the queen to lay eggs and the workers to store nectar.

Your post has cleared up a lot of questions in a very understandable format. Sometimes it's hard to viualize these things. I know that shallows with drawn comb is the what you use to CB, but what if you don't have any shallow with drawn comb? It seems one has to start somewhere? I've thought abot cutting down deep frames into shallow frames but that's a task I'm not anxious to do. What would you recommnd?
I have the same problem, no shallow supers with drawn comb. I expanded greatly this year and have no drawn honeycomb right now.

If the colony is still in the establishment phase, because they were started this year, you may be able to add shallows of foundation and get them to make wax early.

If you’re wondering how to super with foundation I found some good advice from George Imirie

Supering: With Foundation - April 2004

Supering: With Foundation - April 2002

I will be vigilant for swarms and capture any I can because they will make honeycomb quickly. If I find any queen cells I’ll make a split with the existing queen and a couple of frames of brood and honey simulating a swarm to the hive without half of the hive flying away.

Any swarms or splits will go into nucs for future need of brood, queens or expansion.
 
#69 ·
allend:
Yes, I get a whopping 150 US for a published article. At least the IRS was satisfied that it was not income. It costs me more to submit than I get.

If you have a "clue", why not disperse that information? Be aware that dispersing information is also costly.

Walt
 
#71 ·
Mike:
Guess my writing was inadequate to make the distinction between discribing natural colony operations and what happens in the CB mode. In descriptions of the swarm process, whether hollow tree or hive, the descriptions were in terms of what the beekeeper might see in his hive.

What may not have been clear enough is that CB disrupts that sequence in many ways. Of primary importance is that the colony does not start brood nest reduction by backfilling and continues to increase brood volume until repro cut off. This yields upscale of the equivalent of two deeps of brood. There is no arguement more bees make more honey. Sound a little fishey to you? It works by interfereing in those natural processes that minimize honey production.

For the record, have not, and will not, say that you are doing anything "wrong." You have arrived at an approach that accomplishes the the same things as CB in areas where the overhead honey is a deterrant to swarm prevention. We're not that far apart. Regionalism is a thing we must deal with where it applies. May come back to this , later.

Will not respond to entries that are considered either ridicule or character assassination. We can do without both in a discussion of opinions.
Will respond to questions of difference of opinion. Proceeding to your 2 questions that at qualify:
1. No science. When you tune in to the four internal changes that occur at repro c/o, it is indicated, if not obvious, that the colony has had a major change of direction.
2. Sounds good. But is not reliable swarm prevention. They might fill that super with nectar, but the honey reserve is still continuous across the top. They seem to see the top of their capped honey reserve as the top of their cavity and are delayed somewhat, but will swarm if thay have calendar time before repro c/o.

Walt
 
#73 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi Guys,

I've been checkerboarding, for more than a decade, in a northern climate with a harsh environment. You can read about it here:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/checker-boarding/

And I've done a little test by running the same hives, for a season, the conventional way. The details are in the "Running Them The Old Way" section at the bottom of the link above.

This little test more than confirmed the efficacy and value of checkerboarding. It's just an easy(as in labor), simple, elegantly effective way to run a conventional hive for maximum honey production with minimal disturbance.

It allows me to manage my bees early enough to develop huge populations without disturbing or damaging the broodnest. And that's very important in a cold windy climate like mine, where any manipulation, before the end of May, puts brood at risk.

Regards-Dennis
 
#76 ·
In the Sunday paper recently, the English chef Jaimie wrote that a recipe is like a map, if you don't follow the map you won't get where you want to go, and if you do not have all the ingredients, the recipe won't work.

Reading comprehension is one of the biggest challenges for some people

The placing of foundation in a super is simple compared to the Demaree procedure:

Another technique to stop swarming is the
Demaree methods,
separating the queen from the
brood. This lets rapid colony growth continue but
takes a lot of hard work and time. Examine all frames
of brood in the colony, and destroy all queen cells.
Place the queen in the lower brood chamber and all
frames of uncapped brood (eggs and larvae) in the
upper brood chamber. You can keep capped brood in
the upper or lower brood chamber. Place one or two
hive bodies full of empty combs between the original
two brood chambers. Before adding the middle supers,
place a queen excluder (metal or plastic device with
spaces that permit the passage of workers but restricts
the movement of drones and queens to a specific part
of the hive) on top of the bottom hive body.
The colony is now at least three supers high:
• The first super contains the queen, empty
combs, and some capped brood;
• The middle hive bodies contain empty combs
and perhaps a frame or two of capped brood; and
• The top super contains the young, uncapped
brood frames.
Under the Demaree procedure, the uncapped
brood in the top super attracts most young nurse bees
away from the old brood nest in the bottom super,
which relieves the crowding. Also, the empty comb in
the bottom hive body provides plenty of space for the
queen to continue laying. More space opens up as the
capped brood emerges. In 7 to 10 days, return to
inspect the colony and destroy any new queen cells
that may have developed in the upper hive bodies.
A double screen is a wooden frame holding two layers of wire screen,
usually 8–mesh, about 1/2 inch apart, to separate bees in the hive.

Ernie
 
#77 ·
Think I' d go with Dee's pyrimiding up. Assuming the bottom box is essentially empty comb, and the top box contains most of the brood and the honey cap. Disregard if the brood nest is split between boxes.

While the boxes are separated, select an outside frame of brood with the minimum arc of brood. Place that frame of brood in the box of empties where it will be centered over the cluster when the boxes are reversed. Close up the cluster in the active box and place the empty frame at the outside. Reverse boxes on reassembly.

Rationale: By closing up the brood nest one frame, there are ample bees to protect the raised brood. And the real key to swarm prevention is to get cluster bees standing on empty comb. Empty comb underfoot can't be ignored. An unnatural condition in the wild nest, the colony sets out to fill that comb with nectar.

Tennessee Crackpot
 
#78 ·
Mike:
Let me take advantage of the break in this Discussion to make a note on one of your concerns. (overhead crystalized honey) Granted, I don't see much of it in my shorter and milder winters, but the bees have that covered in their survival traits.

In the build up from late winter to repro cut off, the bees protect their capped reserve by feeding on incoming nectar. In late winter, they feed on the reserve in the interest of brood nest expansion, but when field nectar is available, they use that to feed the colony and deliberately maintain the capped honey reserve. They use it, if they must, for survival but if field nectar and flying weather support, They don't open it untill repro cut off.

At repro c/o, the reserve has served its purpose through build up and the swarm prep period. Field nectar is now abundant. Its now time to recycle those cells with fresh nectar for the following winter. They deliberately feed on that capped honey of the reserve through the lull in overhead storage prior to the "main flow". You DO have that lull in overhead storage of established colonies, do you not? ( three weeks where there is little gain in the supers) The literature calls it the "dearth before the flow." Plenty of field nectar out there!! At least locally.

You report moving the sugared honey to the bottom to get it cleaned out. Since the bees don't want their honey below, moving it down may help, but I suspect that those frames would be recycled anywhere in the cluster.

Further, you folks who don't want remnants of the reserve in place in the early season are strange to me. Early season weather is often unpredictable and I take no pleasure in feeding bees. The capped honey reserve is as important to me as it is to the bees. Do I need to remind you that a major cause of colony loss is starvation?

Walt
 
#79 ·
To all:
Received word a few minutes ago that a brother in law in MD has crashed. Will be preparing to travel - starting now. With nearly 2 feet of snow there, am not in a hurry to start, but will be underway when road conditions are supportive. Will be out of touch as long as it takes. When I get back, will rest the defence and field the offence.

Walt
 
#80 ·
This is my last reply. I believe I've asked valid questions. I get dogmatic answers.

I've maintained an open mind..I think. I've agreed that CB works...because comb space is placed above the active broodnest. I give alternative manipulations to that proposed by the author, only to be told no, no, no.

Walt, you say you haven't said I'm wrong...and go on to tell me why reversing isn't effective swarm control...because the bees will reach the honey dome and swarm. Will they not do the same with CBd hives...if you don't add and maintain additional supers?

All your answers to me are based on what ifs and maybes. Without facts, the theories in your manuscript are opinions. Without facts, your eloquently written thesis is a story. I can't go on trying to discuss or debate your opinions. Opinions are undebatable.

I do hope the beekeepers reading these posts will take away what is important. Nectar management is critical in swarm control. Perhaps the most important idea for NM is upward expansion and comb space above the cluster for nectar storage.

Will either management theory eliminate all swarming. No, it won't and if anyoney says it will they're plain wrong.

Thank you for listening...I hope I've added in some positive way to the conversation.
Mike
 
#82 ·
Mike:
Now we're getting somewhere. Havn't told you that reversal isn't effective for your area. And , as I understand it, you get the colony storing overhead before reversal. Can't argue with success. It works for you. Locally, reversal is not as effective. It might be more so if we added your wrinkle. An article in this month's BC has been submitted to Barry to add to the list in POV on my reservations about wintering in the double deep. Don't think it's best in Dixie. It's the regionality thing. And yes, we've already mentioned the importance of maintaining empty comb at the top - once they have expanded through the honey reserve. It seems that the reserve is not a problem for you.

Think I have been fairly straightforward in agreeing that my opinions are conclusions based on observation, with virtually no scientific tests of verification. That permits you to disregard them as you choose.

Walt
 
#83 ·
Mike:
Surely, you jest. Almost all how-to info in beekeeping is somebody's opinion. Yours, mine or others. Picking one we agree on like overhead storage of nectar is a key ingredient of swarm prevention: I have seen no scientific test that would make that opinion irrevocable. And even the opinion is not found in my reference books. I have no way of knowing whether you arrived at that opinion independently or it's a consensus opinion in your area, but I know I derived the opinion independently. Had no 'guidance" in the early years.

The literature has forever recommended early supering. What's missing is how early is "early" Some of that same lit talks about supering at fruit bloom. That is too late for me.

Would it surprise you to learn that I find your management approach supportive of mine? Same objectives, different means, both effective. Why you see this as a personal affront is puzzling. Did you not see a posting on another thead where I said I respected the opinions of the Micheals Bush and Palmer?

Walt
 
#85 ·
Like StevenG, my winter brood nests consist of two deeps, and either a medium super or feeder box on top for extra stores. Most often the cluster is in the bottom of the top super with a honey dome at the top of the top deep. My question for either Walt or Mike P or preferrably both of you is how would you recommend manipulating the brood nest to break up the honey dome without disturbing the cluster? I have tried reversal but then the honey dome is under the empty deep and the queen won't move up. CBing seems to cause too much disruption to the cluster. Any suggestions?

I think sjbees explained this but I am too ignorant to comprehend. Please help a third year beek.

Pete M.
 
#90 ·
If your bees are consistently located at this level in the hive year after year why wouldn't you change the configuration of over wintering hive to 3 mediums for reversing/CB or deep and a medium for CB? Seems to me configuration and manipulation type is dictated by location.
This is really a question for everyone.
Thanks!
 
#87 ·
The Master Beekeeper is distinguished by the simplicity and economy of his actions. There is nothing you can do regarding arrangement of combs that will increase the honey flow and growth of the colony. The less time you spend on individual colonies the more colonies you can keep. Hobbyists and small beekeepers have too much time on their hands and spend it puttering around and developing complicated theories regarding bee " management ".
 
#88 ·
BKgardener,

I don't think MP is monitoring or responding to this thread anymore - or can. If you're interested in reversing, this is how MP described it to me in this recent thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235738

You'll have to wade til toward the end of the pages, cause as you can expect, a lot of other opinions/methods.
 
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