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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
    Posts
    992

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    I havent used chomuphos since the first year it came out. Once I read about it I decided to NEVER use it again. I havent used flavinuate for 5 years. My bees as of two weeks ago looked better than any in past 10 yrs. I'm flying to Fl today so tomorrow I'll see what they look like and maple is starting to bloom so the build up should be on! I believe the biggest problem with these chemicals is the effect on queens and drones. The other big problem in my opinion is neonictinoids, time wil tell.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lafayette,Missouri,U.S.A.
    Posts
    54

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Barry,
    It is hard to get exact figures on what solutions beekeepers with large hive loss have taken to solve their issues. I have been involved with an operation which did NOT change out its coumaphos & fluvalinate comb BUT the commercial operation only used checkmite for three years , once a year in fall and only one strip. The outfit alternated with apistan in the spring.
    My suggestion was to replace all comb but the cost factor kept the beekeeper from doing such.
    He has some problems in certain boxes and has been placing new combs in those boxes but his bees (although going into almonds & apples & producing honey) are not in the shape of an outfit on new comb.

    I have been very vocal with my friends at Dadant about telling beekeepers not to use checkmite & apistan on comb (even at different times of the year) in a hive. If you look at page 47 in their 2009 catalog you will see the methods in use today under the heading "Medication General Usage".

    You might notice that for awhile now Checkmite is not included on the page.
    You can still buy checkmite from Dadant but Dadant (like Barry) is aware that the organophosphate coumaphos & tau fluvalinate in combination create a comb on which bees do not thrive.

    If researchers had simply came out in 2004/2005 and said they knew using checkmite in rotation with apistan should not be done. Ever! Then many beekeepers might still be keeping healthy hives.

    The large beekeeper I spoke of and myself melted down or burned our coumaphos/ fluvalinate comb but others simply sold their comb either as used brood comb or used hives. Perhaps many beekeepers today trying to do everything right and still seeing hive loss have purchased some of this comb?

    My opinion is coumaphos is the bad guy but only in combination with fluvalinate. Some beeks are still using both checkmite & apistan with success but not in rotation. Some are using formic & thymol with either apistan or checkmite as the nuclear option but they know they will contaminate comb if the mix the two.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,759

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Missoura View Post
    I was involved in one of the most earth shaking findings back in 2004. The beekeeper removed and eliminated all comb on which coumaphos & fluvalinate had been used. I did the same with mine as did others in our circle as soon as we saw the success he was getting!

    What would you, or others, say is the optimum number of frames that can be changed out in a single deep brood chamber at one time? Let's assume that the hive is a commercial one rather than a hobbyist's.

    Can you or someone suggest the best time during the season to begin exchanging comb in order to minimize the impact on the colony and the length of time required for exchanging all 10 frames?

    I seem to recall either a 3 or 5 year rotation to completely change out 10 frames, but that seems much too slow to be effective if one has seriously contaminated comb.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,270

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Now, Randy Oliver isn't a large commercial beekeeper, but I believe that he changes out half of his, combs every year. But he sells them. he doesn't really get rid of them in the way you might have been asking about.

    Unless I fed the bees to get them to draw foundation, I don't know if I could get more than 2 frames per year out of my brood boxes. And probably in the spring.

    One could use the brood combs for honey production and then melt them down after extracting. But then one would still have the problem of replacing them w/ newly drawn comb.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    2,308

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Speaking of rotating out contaminated comb...

    What about rotating out foundationless comb in a hive that has never had any chemical treatments? Is that necessary? And if so, how often?
    Thanks!
    Steven

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,270

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Whatever the reasons for rotating out comb, foundationless or not doesn't have much bearing. Unless you never treat for varroa w/ checkmite and/or apistan, which is what is being discussed at this point in the thread. It's not the foundation itself, but the wax that makes up the cells and the foundation which, over time can become contaminated w/ chemicals. Beeswax/comb acts as a spunge that traps chemicals.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinner Apiaries View Post
    Nobody here likes essential oils?
    No, they "essentially" do not work.

    Some of us beekeeper like to rely on "science" to make descions on how to manage our bees. When you depend on your bees 100% for a living using small cell and oils and other kinds of unproven just does not cut the mustard.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-12-2009 at 09:14 AM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    lol. You need to talk to don. He's chem free. Of course his stock is all feral x russian. He knocks mites down with oil. I've done confectioner's sugar. I 'essentially' don't have very much varroa. Plenty of beetles...

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    calaveras, california, usa
    Posts
    40

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Did a title search on directv, they don't have it. would like to watch it, but i quess i'll have to wait for dvd to come out.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Leetonia, Ohio
    Posts
    391

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Was on Planet Green about 2 wks or so ago. That is channel 286 on Direct TV.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,280

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    No, they "essentially" do not work.

    Some of us beekeeper like to rely on "science" to make descions on how to manage our bees. When you depend on your bees 100% for a living using small cell and oils and other kinds of unproven just does not cut the mustard.
    So, they don't cut the mustard...

    If your relying or WAITING on science your bees might all be dead.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  12. #52
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bloomington In
    Posts
    787

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Watched the movie the old guy has the right aditude. Pick up the peaces and go on. He had been there done that and got a tee shirt. You should be able to get the dvd at your local libarery.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,647

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    If your relying or WAITING on science your bees might all be dead.
    Yeah, didn't science give us the brew that is killing the bees? Science is NOT the Holy Grail. It is one part of the whole.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,280

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    science give us the brew that is killing the bees? .
    Can you expand on that Barry?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
    Posts
    3,604

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Barry:
    Yeah, didn't science give us the brew that is killing the bees?

    Here's my $0.02++++
    Science does not have to take a bad rap here!
    Science can be a double bladed sword.
    It's the proper application of science that's important.

    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,647

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Sure Keith. At one time, "science" gave us Coumaphos and Fluvalinate and had us using the two together. That has changed, but at one time, if we were to follow Bud's example, we would do great harm to our bees.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-12-2009 at 11:10 AM.
    Regards, Barry

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,280

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    It seems to me that there are some here saying,

    If it's APPROVED goverment method your a good boy, BUT if you bring out those shop towels your a """"".But then again, IF you use those approved strips that bad to?

    So, if I "can" understand this now on this thread your screwed either way?? Do I understand this correctly?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,647

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    First of all, put a name to "there are some." You're too ambiguous as you stir the pot. Once I understand who all you are referring to and if my name comes up, I'll be glad to reply accordingly.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Owen, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,560

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Keith, you are understanding it correctly in some folks eyes. Most of the time tho, it isn't the same people with these conflicting POV. Some don't want off label used, others don't want ANY meds used. Of course, we all still want our food produced cheaply. I wonder how much <insert your favorite food> would cost if we had to hand pollinate each flowers?

    When talking 'science' one should realize that in most cases, it is the 'hands on the ground' folks that give the scientists a direction in the first case. Necessity is the mother of invention. The problem is, once science develops 'the cure' that has been being used for sometimes decades successfully, it is so tempting to sell that "new" product at an extortionist price. What used to cost 12 cents now costs $4.00 and the original application is made illegal.
    It is a little like suddenly charging $20 a pound for table salt that you can only buy from a particular supplier or two, then making it illegal to use the same salt sold on the shelves at 50 cents a pound.

    I do understand the safety considerations and science does develop dosages and efficacy but beekeepers aren't too stupid to learn how to measure a particular dose once determined to be appropriate. There is no more likelihood of over or under use than with strips, except they'd go bankrupt from the expense. It is all about the money. The profit margins these companies enjoy often encourages 'science' to be more about getting a product out asap and limiting their liability than serving the end user.
    Sheri

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,280

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    First of all, put a name to "there are some." I'll be glad to reply accordingly.
    Well Barry, I think you have made comment about "off lable" mite treatments. Am I wrong?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

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