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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada BC Delta
    Posts
    451

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    More evidence Imid is not an issue at least in Canola

    from Peter Borst post on BEE-L
    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...mail.com&P=852


    The title of his talk was Honey Bee Winter Kill From 2007-2009 in Alberta, Canada:
    If you look at the winter losses it doesn't look good right across Canada. Alberta has been at about 44% wintering losses and spring dwindling the last two years running.



    For canola, the seed treatments, when applied according to label specifications do not appear to be an issue" - Heather Clay
    Concerning this comment, The Canadian Honey Council has a new sponsor being Bayer Crop Science as of last year. I wouldn't expect a different response from Heather.
    44% losses seems that canola could be a problem. There's a lot of canola grown in Alberta.


    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...68d8c57f.1001D

    These chemicals are often present at very low levels - under four parts per billion. To demonstrate what a small amount of chemical that is Dr. Frazier explained it would take a billion sheets of toilet paper to stretch from New York to London - the analogy being that honey bees have the ability to detect/be effected by only one square of that roll. By feeding these miniscule amounts of chemicals found in beehives to bee larva and adult bees in the lab, Dr. Frazier and his collegues are finding that these chemicals do effect a honey bees health and development.
    This is a interesting hypothesis

    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...;ce038ee.1001D

    Allen said "Monoculture is starving our bees."

    And maybe fungicides are too.
    I would think that the way the chemical companies test for approval is out dated. Do the safety regulations take into account the differences in how these new chemicals act and interact over extented periods? Are they killing us softly?

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Only big company I worked for dealt with computer hard drives. So no connection to Ag Chems. My family is a large 3rd generation apple grower in SW Wisco so I have a lot of experience with ag chemicals around bees.

    Sutton you posed an interesting question about Wis/FL and two groups of hives.

    Here is what jumped out at me about your description. I looked into essential oils for mite treatments. In short there is no good evidence that they work. As one researcher told me Bud, they Essentially do not Work thats why they are called Essential Oils.

    So unless this beek had collected any mite level data in fall we can only speculate he lost his hives to mites which incidentially is still the number one reason for bee losses and has been for some time.

    THe reason for the differences in FL to Wisco can be explained by the mite loads. Wisco hives have a brood free time which delays the onset of mite crash. In FL you have mites replicating all year round or for sure much longer then in Wisco. So I don't see any slam dunk here blaming Imid.

    I agree that we have some data from studies that hint at a problem with Imid. However these are outlier studies that don't seem to fit the overall pattern that suggests that Imid if properly applied is benign to bees. Science is not black and white - kind of like beekeeping. So what I mean by that is even though I believe Imid is not a huge problem that does not mean there are not regional or other isolated issues with some crops, soil types and climate or even grower misuse.

    While there is always a horror story somewhere overall the last 2 years has seen less losses for many beekeepers. Its not hard to find operations that are doing very well.

    As you know Imid is EVERYWHERE. Therefore how can we have operations that are doing well if Imid is the big deadly killer?

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
    Posts
    994

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    He used essential oils with thymol which works and check mite levels often. He is generaly recognized as a really good beekeeper. He has controlled mites with thymol for many years(thymol is same ingerdiant in Dadants apigard). is mite counts are/were low. THere was a differance in bees that were located in highly farmed areas in Wi(which would be using chemicals at a higher level) and woods areas. THis does not prove chemicals affected the bees but MUST be looked at closely. Since he has treated with thymol for numerous yrs he has no combs exposed to fluvalinuate/cumaphus, and olny has had these losses the past three yrs. Bud are you doing to take me up on the steak dinner bet....I need a free meal!!! lol

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,825

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Did I miss Mr. Dinglers reply to my post 97? It seem s to fly in the face of the "only the migratories get CCD" theory.

    Roland

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Well the reply by dingler to get over it and move on. well if you think that these chemicals dont affect the honeybee and most other bees then you are living in a bubble. there is no way we can use these chems. like we are doing in everyday life and not affect the bees. I know that they may not be the only cause of CCD but they are affecting our bees.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,700

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by suttonbeeman View Post
    He used essential oils with thymol which works and check mite levels often. mite counts are/were low.
    What is this beek's idea of a low mite load? I think that is the key here. Since we all vary our treatments, we all must have an idea of what high loads and low #'s are. I doubt that the #'s are the same for everyone. So, i guess what i am saying is FACTS please on the numbers. Just saying the #'s are low is not enough. Maybe his low number are the same as my high or mid range #'s

    I have been following this thread for a while now. Yes i agree that all the sprays "can" have some effect on the health of the hives, especially if the sprays are abused. However, first and formost, most farmers are not in the habit of abusing chemicals since the bottom line is tight. Not using properly and in a timely fashion reduces the yields and then reduces the bottom line.
    Second, i think we are too quick to point at the chemical companies. For if we looked else where, the answer might just be staring back at us in the mirror.

    For those who figure the chem companies are to blame for your losses, I challenge you to post your mite load numbers, what you used to "treat" the mites, and the numbers pre, mid and post treatment. Your nosema spore counts as well and if you treated. Did you feed pollen and what were the pollen stores like, and finally how much feed and what type of feed did they have to feed on in the winter. Add to the data, spring, summer and fall testing of the previous year. So if your losses are 2010 spring, what were the numbers like 2009. What was the weather like? What was the honey yield like? What were the bee numbers like going into winter? Was there enough young bees and older bees. Were the young bees hampered with high mite loads when they were in the larva stage?

    We need to realize the big picture in beekeeping. We need to take into account what happened to "this or these" hives over the last year in order to get an understanding as to why they died. Not just a snap shot and blame CCD and the chem companies. We have a part that was played in the losses too.

    Everything i do to my hives, every manipulation, any treatment, and decision on the hives whether spring or fall, has to meet my end goal, the big picture. That goal is winter survival and honey production. It is on the forfront of anything that is done in the hives... I am a firm believer that anything we do now, at this point and time will affect the end game a year or even two from now.
    Last edited by JohnK and Sheri; 02-03-2010 at 11:33 AM. Reason: quotes

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Owen, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,560

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by honeyshack View Post
    We need to realize the big picture in beekeeping. We need to take into account what happened to "this or these" hives over the last year in order to get an understanding as to why they died.....
    ........ anything we do now, at this point and time will affect the end game a year or even two from now.
    Yes, this is the mindset we try to instill in new beeks. It does no good to go out to your colony/ies two days before the snow storm to check for mites and make sure there are enough winter stores. Most problems result from something (or things) that happened (or didn't happen) 3, 6 or 9 months earlier.

    At the same time, taking this "big picture" to a wider perspective, we also need to NOT eliminate any chems without long term independent studies, and these need to go far beyond short term mortality studies.
    I cannot understand the logic of those blaming the "legal" chems (which were also purported to be safe), but giving a free ticket to big ag applied chems. How can we assume bees are susceptible to one and not the other? Taking the assurance of chemical companies that everything is fine is like taking the word of the fox that the chickens are safe.
    We learned after the fact how deadly some approved treatments are when combined. Given the likely hood those chems might end up in the same colonies, does anyone else find it incredible no one thought to ask about the combined effects? The fact is, some don't want to look too closely; there are no financial incentives to do so.
    Sheri

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,700

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK and Sheri View Post
    ...I cannot understand the logic of those blaming the "legal" chems (which were also purported to be safe), but giving a free ticket to big ag applied chems.

    We learned after the fact how deadly some approved treatments are when combined. Sheri

    I am not sure i understand what you are saying...in red..., please clarify...or dumb it down

    Why would you want to combine chemicals treatments ...in blue...IMO that would be off label use and could pose serious risks, like death or change withdrawal times. An example would be great.

    Thanks
    Last edited by JohnK and Sheri; 02-03-2010 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Owen, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,560

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by honeyshack View Post
    I am not sure i understand what you are saying...in red..., please clarify...or dumb it down

    Why would you want to combine chemicals treatments ...in blue...IMO that would be off label use and could pose serious risks, like death or change withdrawal times. An example would be great.

    Thanks
    First, I wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular, but there have been some people who, while disregarding any risk from the neonicitinoids, due to "safety testing" done by the companies themselves, seem to have the attitude that it is beekeeper's application of chemicals, whether illegal or not, that is/has hurt colonies.

    To emphasize the inability(unwillingness?) of current testing procedures to assure safety I alluded to the combined negative effects of coumaphos (Chechmite) and fluvalinate(Apistan), both legal approved applications. This wasn't when applied concurrently, but consecutively, alternating in different years and even within a season, as was recommended when fluvalinate resistance was found. Both these chemicals are legally available to beekeepers. This has been discussed here on Beesource but a quick search didn't turn up the thread. Here is another reference.
    http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/facult...MarApr2009.pdf

    Just because the company that wants to sell you something says it is safe does not guarantee that it is. This goes beyond miticides. We see it again and again in human drug recall. Why do we think it would not be the case with ag chemicals?
    Sheri

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,700

    Default Re: The Last Beekeeper

    Thank you. Was not trying to be difficult, just did not get it.

    Thanks

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