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  1. #61
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    Nov 2009
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    Seattle, WA, USA
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    52

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Foster Collins View Post
    ...The Langstroth is a brilliant design. ... It really is. I can see why it became the standard for so many people. It just really works amazingly well.
    Oh, please. The Lang and its modernist derivatives were aggressively marketed, cheaply manufactured, and standardized such that vendor competition and downward pricing lowered the barriers to entry to almost token levels. Don't confuse brilliant marketing with good design--I'm a designer too, and can see that the Lang's flaws are glaringly manifold.

    The Lang is drafty and overlarge, with sizing and framing suited to mass-produced, forced honey production--and to fostering many bee diseases and parasites. Any claim that it's fundamentally well-suited to honey bee biology is delusional. That it's an industrial-scale device with 99% market share (huh...for now) in no way makes it even close to ideal for small-scale or back yard beekeeping.

    ... Industry standards have also created added expense over the years (and the same will certainly happen with tbh's as they gain popularity... North Americans cannot support themselves and their habits without making a fair amount of money...
    No way. Warré's core philosophy was to make beekeeping once more accessible to everyday folks. Despite a few small-scale and amateur woodworkers now offering Warré products, most are still homemade. And please keep your OT digs at Americans to yourself.

    ...I imagine, that the industry will soon expand to sell the Lang, the ktbh, the ttbh, and the Warre all side by side. They have the network of suppliers and the eyes of the consumers....But for now, it seems like a bit a pioneer period again.
    Not there yet, thank goodness. There's loads left to be developed, rationally and by trial and error, and rushing once again into another standardization paradigm would be badly premature. There are today many exciting, ongoing hive developments and beek methods that deviate firmly from Lang-era orthodoxy, so if this is what you mean by pioneer, then yes, it's a good time to be getting into the craft.

    //Alex T.

  2. #62
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    Feb 2010
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    skagit,washington,usa
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    6

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    I agree with a lot of folks on here that "to each his own" we had a few tbh's and they didnt work out with us very well but we also decided to expand, the trouble we had was that the bees wanted to build comb across the top bars even though we made a groove in each one and put a bead of beeswax down every top bar. we never figured out why they did it this way but it was really fun to explore and check out, we eventually moved them into a langstroth setup and they did just fine. but I say if one wants to try it then go for it, you never know you just might like it!

  3. #63
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    Nov 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    1,996

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by A. S. Templeton View Post
    Oh, please. The Lang and its modernist derivatives were aggressively marketed, cheaply manufactured, and standardized such that vendor competition and downward pricing lowered the barriers to entry to almost token levels. Don't confuse brilliant marketing with good design--I'm a designer too, and can see that the Lang's flaws are glaringly manifold.
    Oh please is right. The lang's flaws are only "glaringly manifold" under a wave of rising recent criticism, after 150 years of widespread use. And when one is assessing "good design", one has to keep the intent of the designer and the context they were working in, in mind. The intent was movable frames, mass-production, ease of access and maximum honey. For the time it was produced, and for the purposes it was designed for (purposes it continues to serve quite well), I maintain that the Langsroth hive was very well-designed. Your first paragraph describes an industrial age success to a T. I'm not confusing anything.

    Warré's core philosophy was to make beekeeping once more accessible to everyday folks. Despite a few small-scale and amateur woodworkers now offering Warré products, most are still homemade. And please keep your OT digs at Americans to yourself.
    If a Warre hive is illegal anywhere you are required to use a movable frame hive, it kind of rains on the "accessible to everyday folks" parade. And I didn't make any "OT digs at Americans", cowboy. I made a general observation of the culture I've been a part of for my whole life.

    You sound like you're raving at me. It's not especially conducive to a good conversation.

  4. #64
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    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central Connecticut, USA
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    175

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Coudln't you build a warre hive with removable top bars so that it met that standard even tho you choose not to inspect it? Or would the bees attach it to the sides so much that it would defete the point?

  5. #65

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Yes you can. It is referred to in a few sites that offer instructions for building them.

    One could drill a hole on each end of the top bar, and place a nail at each end. The hole being slightly larger than the nail will stay put when not being inspected but slide easily over the nail to be lifted and removed when needed.

    There are other similar techniques (cut a slot at the ends instead of drill a hole, etc...)

    Big Bear
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  6. #66
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    Dec 2004
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    Totnes, Devon, England
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    1,020

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigevilgrape View Post
    Coudln't you build a warre hive with removable top bars so that it met that standard even tho you choose not to inspect it? Or would the bees attach it to the sides so much that it would defete the point?
    In my - admittedly limited - experience of Warré hives, the bees will attach comb down both sides. They are also likely to cross-comb, although I found that round bars seemed largely to prevent that happening.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  7. #67
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
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    227

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    As I understand it, the question of horizontal (top bar) v vertical (lang) was decided by Lang's advertising budget size back in the 1800's. The most successful bee keeper back in those days were using horizontal hives, but didn't manufacture or sell their hives.

    Of course the horizontal hives being used back then were much deeper that the tbh we're using today.

  8. #68
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    Aug 2009
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    Brady, washington
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    708

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    just my two cents here I look at a tbh as a throw back to the stone age! with that said I feel there is a use for a TBH in modern bee keeping, I use it for a trap and that works well. And I like having one on my back deck, Nice and small. As for the lang. It's over 150 years old and works well it has flaws its not the best for bees its not the best for Beeks. But if one looks at it like from a modern aspect of things. take Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang.
    It's standard easy to use the vast majority use it. right now it seems that TBH are on the rise but its not so Just that the THB is getting awhole lot of publicity and hype.
    so each to their own but as for me and the majority of my bees we will stay with a lang.
    99.99% of questions can be answered by Just reading books.

  9. #69
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    Dec 2004
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    Totnes, Devon, England
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    1,020

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by honeydreams View Post
    Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang.
    It's called Linux and it runs most of the servers on the net! And like the TBH, it costs virtually nothing, is easy to learn, and does the job better.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  10. #70

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    agree on the Linux. I can also say that Microsoft is on record as owing most of their 'popularity' to illegal and un ethical OEM contracts forcing computer manufacturers of the 80's and 90's to have no 'real' alternativesexept to install it's software on prebuilt computers.

    Their seems to be a notion that old things are bad or useless and can only be replaced by new ideas and inventions. This is so unbelievably wrong.

    The history of beekeeping by humans is dated back to early Greece and Egypt at the least. The invention of the langstroth is a relative newcomer and it claim to fame is to be a type of hive designed to make the beekeepers life easier, don't worry about what may be best for the bees, as long as it's easy for people.

    I don't have a problem with the langstroth hive in itself, my concern is those who starchly defend it as 'the definitive and only' hive of modern times.

    The Langstroth is a good hive for forcing bees to produce more honey and make it easy to collect. That is what the man who invented says he made it for in his book.

    is it possible that there are other people working with honey bees that are not interested in high honey production or might actually have different objectives, thereby finding better use from other tools?

    I have used and will continue to use langs in my work with bees for those few situations where they are the better option. I find that the horizontal tbh will work better for my objectives in most of my foreseeable work though.

    the close minded and shallow thinking that langs are the one and only hive that can and should be used is not helping anything or any one.

    furthermore, for those folks who dislike the aggressive attitudes of some proponents of tbh's, you are not alone, no one likes argumentative and close minded people trying to force their ways onto others.

    No one wants to hear the 'langs only and others are evil" crowd and no one wants to hear the " langs are evil and those that use them are too"

    There are so many better things we can discuss to help keep the honey bees alive and thriving like sharing knowledge on biology and behavior.

    now

    back to our featured presentation...

    Big Bear
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central Connecticut, USA
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    175

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by honeydreams View Post
    Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc..
    That is a can of worms you do not want to open. But no I don't use windows, and I have no compatablility issues with the rest of the world.

  12. #72
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    Aug 2009
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    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    to reply to your post, I was pointing out some one's earler post on the lang being marketed very well. we have Microsoft because of slick advertising and other such things I for one don't care what os system is better cheaper that was not my point if you read the whole postings on this topic. I am just saying LLL did a great job marketing then any one else out there. Bill gates did a better job then anyone else out there on getting his product out there. and yes I know of all the cheatting stealing patten busting that has gone on. so please take the post as a exsample of what Is being said not what you read in to it.
    99.99% of questions can be answered by Just reading books.

  13. #73

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    That's the point. i am saying your example of 'slick' and good marketing is incorrect.

    in 'marketing' the langstroth hive, it was marketed on it's merits and what it had to oofer the beekeeper who wanted more and easier.

    It was good marketing with few if any competitors.

    You are comparing that to a person and company who did not just market, but lied, cheated and stole doing anything he could to eliminate competition which already existed.

    I don't think that is a fair comparison at all for the lang.

    Gates wasn't good at marketing as much as he was good at getting away with crime.

    Big difference.
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  14. #74
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    Aug 2009
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    Brady, washington
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    708

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Big bear take a chill pill.
    99.99% of questions can be answered by Just reading books.

  15. #75

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    I didn't think I was being un-chill.

    Big Bear
    No, I am NOT a bee "Keeper". Anything I post is just my opinion. Take it easy and think for yourself.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Grafton, NY, USA
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    I think that if anyone wanted to, that in many cases, they could "adapt" their tbh to use lang honey supers if they wanted. I know a lady that has used her lang honey supers on her tbh. And I had purchased an 8 frame deep as that was the only deep they had available for sale and I needed a deep super that day, so I bought it. And when it came time to expand that 8 frame into another level I used and "adapter" to combine the 8 frame deep with 10 frame supers above. The point being that I don't think that non standard need to be mutually exclusive (unless you want them to be). I too am hoping to experiment with a tbh this year since I have also been expirementing with foundationless frames. (And I think I will be cutting out my comb and refastening it. Apparently the hives may have been unlevel as they started to build comb across multiple frames, even though they had a line they could have followed. But I really like the idea that the bees can determine the size of the cells and comb they desire as well as that there is less to buy and less plastic and foreign residues and chemicals in the hive.)

    And I agree that we have to get the next generation outside and involved in more hands on past times. Electronics are nice and have their place, but some of the obesity and hyperactivity issues can probably be resolved by getting youth (and adults) outside more... and why not include learning about beekeeping as one of those activities.
    Last edited by NewBee2007; 03-14-2010 at 10:35 AM. Reason: typos

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Yellville,Arkansas
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    27

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by honeydreams View Post
    just my two cents here I look at a tbh as a throw back to the stone age! with that said I feel there is a use for a TBH in modern bee keeping, I use it for a trap and that works well. And I like having one on my back deck, Nice and small. As for the lang. It's over 150 years old and works well it has flaws its not the best for bees its not the best for Beeks. But if one looks at it like from a modern aspect of things. take Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang.
    It's standard easy to use the vast majority use it. right now it seems that TBH are on the rise but its not so Just that the THB is getting awhole lot of publicity and hype.
    so each to their own but as for me and the majority of my bees we will stay with a lang.
    Please don't use Computer or Sofware comparisons here , i am an older Beek just getting tuned in on homesteading and less time on 'Puter Stuff, ,, Yes i am here to learn, and this Thread has been a great lesson for me and i am sure other beginners on the differences of the Four main hive types or designs. I do think that the first post is looking for a Builder of his ideal 7by5/8 inch Lang. maybe someone could see this as an opportunity for future business ,or to help him find this size . As a total novice i am so glad you guys are sharing your time with us, and i for one Thank you. This info is valuable and best an eye opener of some Hive realities . Maybe its time for a contest be organized at some Engineering,Design , in conjunction with Agricultural-Apiary Students to come up with new better hives for us and the Bees.
    One thing that was not brought up , we can't just blame one design for CCD or downward population growth of Bees Because it has to do with many influences. IE: Neo-nicotine pesticides from Bayer, other from Mansanto, like Round up -( i never liked that Toxic chem, when i was in a small Business, i refused to sell it or even stock it),Weather Cycle changes,(i am not sold on Greenhouse effects at this time), Chems used in Beekeeping as well.
    this was my Beginner 2cents, but i am just looking in from outside at this point. i appreciate the constructive banter or Volley , and will grow with this knowledge.

  18. #78
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    Aug 2009
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    Brady, washington
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    708

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Farmsteader your right on the money. I say each to their own. Enjoy what you want in hive design.
    99.99% of questions can be answered by Just reading books.

  19. #79
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Seattle, WA, USA
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    52

    Big Grin Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by honeydreams View Post
    Farmsteader your right on the money. I say each to their own. Enjoy what you want in hive design.
    That's what this is about. There is no need for fear & loathing from the frames-are-great crowd, or flame throwing from TBH radicals. Surely there's room -- dare one say necessity -- for as much diversity as possible in beekeeping, in hives, methods, and philosophies. Stick to the orthodoxy? Fine. Shrug off the dead hand of LLL? Go for it.

    //Alex T.
    Last edited by A. S. Templeton; 03-16-2010 at 09:34 AM. Reason: delta

  20. #80
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    Nov 2009
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    Seattle, WA, USA
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    52

    Default Re: People, a top bar hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Foster Collins View Post
    The lang's flaws are only "glaringly manifold" under a wave of rising recent criticism, after 150 years of widespread use.
    Huh, this seems to imply that such criticism, based on the sensibilities of actual living beekeepers today, and backed up by hard scientific data, can be blithely ignored. "It's worked for a century and a half, so it must be perfect for all time." I recall seeing this type of argument on a list of logical fallacies.

    Your first paragraph describes an industrial age success to a T.
    Snore...the West has moved beyond The Age of Progress, and the Manifest-Destiny, anthropocentric philosophies of that age have been overthrown. CCD, sick, medicated and dead colonies hardly constitute "success". It's high time the 19th century strictures on beekeeping were cut away to allow bee-rational keeping to progress.

    If a Warre hive is illegal anywhere you are required to use a movable frame hive, it kind of rains on the "accessible to everyday folks" parade.
    Ignorant, bogus argument. Warré's Beekeeping for All refers to fabrication of a simple, bee-friendly hive by the non-pro, and to simple colony management that doesn't eat up a beek's time. Warré never addressed arbitrary and ill-informed restrictions on hive construction. And it ain't a parade, but a groundswell that is evidently threatening to some who see only one Truth in beekeeping, or who revere LLL as G*d's divine prophet of the craft.

    And a big NB on "North Americans", eh: Canucks and other nanny-staters may be comfortable with intrusive laws steering personal and professional conduct and trade, but we "cowboys" south of the border somehow manage without them, and quietly circumvent or blatantly ignore the ones already in place.

    //Alex T.
    Last edited by A. S. Templeton; 03-16-2010 at 10:29 AM. Reason: typos

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