Varroa & Resistance

[mike bispham]

The various options for control for varroa work for a while and then no longer, as the mites develop resistance. And in using them you prevent your bees developing their own natural resistance. You keep weak bees alive and allow them to send their defective genetic material into the local environment, undermining any resistance there.

It is far better to adopt the preventative approach used by all other kinds of stockholder - by bringing in or delevoping resistant bees, and keeping them resistant by multiplying from the best and eliminating the weakest.

Genetic hygiene is a permant solution to varroa, and other pests and diseases. It is the way nature keeps species strong - the only truly 'natural' way.

The treatments bring benefits only to treatment manufacturers, their supply chanis and advertisers. They invest a great deal of money selling their products by telling you that treating is the 'proper' way to fix the problem, and making up stories about how the great 'cure' is just around the next corner.

These are not beekeepers, but the worst parasite of all. They don't care about healthy bees, they care about their profits, period.

Fight back on behalf of bees and beekeepers by learning the simple techniques of clean beekeeping. And spead the word - these people have budgets of millions of dollars - but we have the internet...

Mike

PS See the selected links on my website for more details.

[PerryBee]

Hi Mike

While I agree with much of what you have written I cannot help but feel that you are viewing things in black and white only with no shades of gray. How could commercial beekeepers survive what you are recommending? The loss of their livelihood could be the result of the wholesale changes you suggest. While not wanting to seem to defend treatment manufacturers, surely many of them are responding to requests for help by the industry and are not all "parasites" themselves.
If the solution to all of the problems beekeepers are facing today was as simple as "learning the simple techniques of clean beekeeping", do you not feel that the vast majority of us would be doing so by now? Surely no one wants the added headaches and expenses of the chemical treadmill.
I believe you are on the right track with your arguements however it is not always that cut and dry for everyone.

Respectfully

Perry

[mike bispham]

Hi Mike

While I agree with much of what you have written I cannot help but feel that you are viewing things in black and white only with no shades of gray. How could commercial beekeepers survive what you are recommending? The loss of their livelihood could be the result of the wholesale changes you suggest.

Hi Perry,

The general idea is that any beekeeper of whatever size can move away from a treatment based health regime toward a selection-based health regime, with no losses or drawbacks of any kind. The trick is to simply to discover which are your most resistant bees, and start multiplying from them, and, at the same time, find out which are the least resistant, and start replacing/requeening them. There there is no question of economic disadvantage - and in just a season or two a very distinct economic advantages.

While not wanting to seem to defend treatment manufacturers, surely many of them are responding to requests for help by the industry and are not all "parasites" themselves.

Well, perhaps. I tend toward the view that the biggest problem current challenging bees is so many people are trying to make a living from 'helping' them. Actually they are doing nothing of the kind. They are simply people trying to make a living - or, in the case of multinational companies, trying to increse the wealth of their shareholders - who neither know about, and probably usually don't much care about, the effects of their actions.

Taking a harder view: the chemical industries are expert at 'medicalising' health problems in a way that creates an 'addiction' of one kind or another. That supplies them with an endless market, and an endless profit stream. Since profit making is their whole motivation, they are certainly not going to do anything that might undermine that stream. Educating people about ways of managing animal health without medication is not high on their list of important things to do.

If the solution to all of the problems beekeepers are facing today was as simple as "learning the simple techniques of clean beekeeping", do you not feel that the vast majority of us would be doing so by now? Surely no one wants the added headaches and expenses of the chemical treadmill.

We've been panicked into this way of thinking by ignorance and greed. We've fallen for the lie that 'adaptation will take thousands of years'. It hasn't been well understood that species regularly suffer population crashes when new diseases and predators come along, and bounce back surprisingly rapidly. The situation now however is that while many people understand the larger picure, the purveyors of treatments have the stage, and provide the narratives that suit them.

I believe you are on the right track with your arguements however it is not always that cut and dry for everyone.

I agree completely. But the way out can be seen, and the message is going around fast, thanks to the internet. There's good clear light at the end of the tunnel.

Respectfully

Mike

[BEES4U]

And in using them you prevent your bees developing their own natural resistance.

I use 100% VSH breeder queens that are instrumentaly inseminated.
I flood the DC, drone congregation, areas with my selected breeder queens that are VSH. Yes, you can buy a VSH breeder queen that is instrumentaly inseminated.

The Varroa can cause major physical damage to the bees.
it is not the feeding damage that kills the bee.
It's what the Varroa is carry as a vector which is like deer ticks and Lyme disease.
Regards,
Ernie

[olddrown]

Tell me some more about the VSH bees.Are the bees resistant to the mites?

[PerryBee]

Hi Mike:

I like the idea of chemical free beekeeping and can only imagine how things must have been prior to Varroa showing up. I am probably one of those who has believed that a complete change of ideoligy regarding my beekeeping efforts will ultimately result in disaster. If in fact the changes you suggest could be accomplished in a season or two I could possibly be persuaded to give it a go with one of my yards.
Do you use any form of Varroa control, such as oxalic or formic or are you hard core natural?

Respectfully

Perry

[mike bispham]

Tell me some more about the VSH bees.Are the bees resistant to the mites?

Yes. The bees cope with the mites through a number of known mechanisms and very likely others that are not understood. If you follow the links from my website you will find guidance to the methods of raising such bees from your own, or feral stock. If you are in the US you can buy resistant nucs and queens - I haven't heard of any available in Europe yet, though I expect they are thee, and I have no doubt they will be soon.

Raising your own takes no more than multiplying from your most resistant hives and requeening or otherwise eliminating the weakest. It works best if you know exactly what to look for - the 'criteria for selection'. And its important to understand this must be done on an ongoing basis - every year you fine-tune a little. Natural selection never stops, and neither must the husbandryman. All pests and diseases - indeed every kind of weakness - can be controlled this way. And of course the traits you want as a beekeeper bought forward at the same time.

Mike

[mike bispham]

Hi Mike:

I like the idea of chemical free beekeeping and can only imagine how things must have been prior to Varroa showing up. I am probably one of those who has believed that a complete change of ideoligy regarding my beekeeping efforts will ultimately result in disaster. If in fact the changes you suggest could be accomplished in a season or two I could possibly be persuaded to give it a go with one of my yards.
Do you use any form of Varroa control, such as oxalic or formic or are you hard core natural?

Respectfully

Mike

Perry

Hi Perry,

Sadly I'm much more a theoretical bee man than a keeper - something I hope to change very soon. So all I can offer is direction to those who do make this stuff work (via my web pages) and do some theoretical infilling.

I hope you'll give it a try. My advice, if you are commercial, is to do quite a bit of reading and planning, and get some guidance from people who are in the game. You could try contacting some of the suppliers of VSH nucs and queens listed at Glenne Apiaries website (bottom of my links page). Do work down the top 6 or 8 pages from my links page - that should convince you that you are on the right track, and give you a very good idea of what is ahead. (Don't worry about the rest of the site unless you want to go deep into the biology - you don't need to.)

If you think I might be able to clarify anything, do ask.

Good luck,

Mike

[honeyshack]

So let me get this straight.

You do not have bee hives, now or ever?

You are an authority on this HOW?

Maybe before you pass judgement on methods of beekeeping, you should become one and put into practice what you "preach". Then get back to us

[mike bispham]

Some folks insist on hands-on experience for everthing, other accept that a bit of book learning can supply useful information too. I kept half a dozen hives for about 6 years back in the late 80's and early 90's, experimented a lot, kept observations hives and so on. (So you are wrong on that 'ever' part)

I was taught then by an old fella who knew very little book learning, but kept bees, maintained a truly extraordinarily large garden - on his own, and supplied fruit and veg for 6. He'd learned about nature and beekeeping from his father, and he passed some of that on to me.

I stopped keeping bees when varroa made it impossible to continue (as I thought back then).

So my beekeeping expreience is thin of late, but I'm not entirely ignorant. And I've spent a lot of time in the intervening 20 years thinking, reading, learning, and talking about it - with beekeepers, researchers, biologists and husbandrymen in many other fields.

What I try to do now is show folks that what I've learned is... other beekeepers have shown conclusively that these methods work, and that biology allows to understand exactly how.

It also allows us to understand that with bees treating individuals _always_ downgrades the local genetics. the more you treat, the more you need to treat.

But if you want to reject any and all of what I say that's fine. There is room for all views here. I'm just offereing to show those who don't know about nature's method of maintaining health how to find out about it, that there definately is an alternative to endless chemicals, manipulations and treatments, and that in the longer term you have a much better chance of healthy and reliable bees if you pay attention to genetics. Some people, as you can see, are glad to hear of that, and are open minded enough to want to learn more.

Mike

[tecumseh]

honeyshack writes:
So let me get this straight.

You do not have bee hives, now or ever?

You are an authority on this HOW?

tecumseh:
after a while the dust in the air begins to settle and everything looks perfectly clear.

beekeeping is largely an application driven endeavor.... this or that theory may prove useful but will only prove to be of value if it has some application.

[rkr]

So let me get this straight.

You do not have bee hives, now or ever?

Now, Now, Now Honeyshack....tisk tisk

Mike B has one hive of bees that he got last spring from a swarm. IF they make it through this winter he can have the title of a Successful first year beekeeper!!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...314#post443314 post #55

P.s. I have had this discussion before with him.

[mike bispham]

My policy at the moment is to jump ship when the nits arrive - there's no known remedy for unreason.

If anyone would like to talk sensibly about these things you can reach me privately, and we can copy posts back here for others to read.

All best,

Mike

[rkr]

So we are "nits"
Is that nitwits or lice nits or nit pickers?

[Barry]

There is no need for getting into a verbal fistfight. Whether one currently has hives or not is no indicator of one's ability to think reasonably and discuss beekeeping. In fact, if you have to resort to using that as your defense (attack another who has no hives or is just starting), you've lost credibility in my book.

[Tom G. Laury]

Well, arrogance invites irritation. If Mr Bispham was raising resistant bees he would have alot more credibility on this forum.

[Barry]

That's my point, Tom. The words anyone speaks about beekeeping do not become credible simply because they are keeping some beehives. You ought to be able to point out and argue any of Mike's claims or statements without resorting to "you don't have any bees." You do keep bees so use your experience and knowledge to refute statements you feel are not true or out of line with what you see in your experiences.

[cow pollinater]

this or that theory may prove useful but will only prove to be of value if it has some application.

I have a problem with the actual application of what has been suggested. Bees are my hobby before they are my business so I get to play alot and that has led me to trying just about everything that Glenns (and just about everyone else) has to offer.
Yes, my VSH daughters are indeed much more mite resistant than the carnis or the cordovans. Yes, the russians do really well with the mites even when mated to other drones. (Russians with heavy VSH influence do REALLY well against the mites BTW)
BUT... both the VSH and Russians use brood rearing as a defense. VSH bees actively remove brood that is infested and part of the russians resistance is the hard shutdown of brood-rearing at the first hint of cool weather...
Pollination is what feeds the world. Pollination requires strong colonies. Strong colonies are made with LOTS of BROOD. Therefore, pollination is not done with bees that don't produce wall to wall brood.
Yes, my russians and VSH daughters are coping with the mites, but the cordovan and carni bees that I killed the mites on are the ones that will be ready for the almonds this spring.

[heaflaw]

Well, arrogance invites irritation. If Mr Bispham was raising resistant bees he would have alot more credibility on this forum.

I raise resistant bees and I agree completely with what Mike says. I keep between 15-20 hives and haven't treated with anything in about 4 years. I lose about 10-15% each year which is the average before varroa arrived. My bees are not VSH or Russian but localized Italians. I just got tired of spending the time and money treating them when I didn't need to. I let the ones that could not handle varroa die off and requeened from the survivors. It was not difficult to do. I lost maybe half of my normal honey harvest for one year, but from a monetary view, I've already saved more than the value of that honey by not purchasing apistan, menthol, terramycin, etc.

[hoodswoods]

So we're back what Tecumseh threads

"beekeeping is largely an application driven endeavor.... this or that theory may prove useful but will only prove to be of value if it has some application."

We hang on to Ross's and Michael's experience for direction, but even after 50+ (?) years of experience, we still wonder, and find things to be different (as they would expect as well).

Bailing on controversy doesn't cut it here on beesource - even if it gets nasty (4.9 for example) - we just apologize and move on.

I'm sure that all of us appreciate your input, and many of us subscribe to it, but your theory has been tested and the results are not in - as with everyone elses - we're just still trying to find IT.