fall inspection

[Grid]

First year beekeeper, looking for some feedback. Ottawa Ontario.

I have two hives started in June. One Russian one Hawaiian. Four weeks ago, all was well - both hives were humming along, pollen (and I assume nectar) being collected, nice egg and brood pattern and plenty of it, honey and pollen stores coming along nicely - I did not open up the brood chamber, but supers on both hives were being drawn out and filled, and there was honey in the top brood chamber along with eggs and brood.

This past Saturday Oct 10 I opened them up for a pre-winter inspection and Mite-Away II treatment.

- Both hives are light in the honey department, with maybe 1 1/2 supers of honey each. Turns out the bottom brood boxes are empty. I was hoping for a Fall flow that never really came. Cruddy year - rain, rain, rain. I will be feeding syrup and dry sugar until snow flies, and hopefully that will be ok. I think I should have been feeding them, and treating them for Mites, since the first two weeks of September. Sound right? If so, my bad, live and learn.

- The Hawaiian hive has a very small amount of eggs/brood, but there are eggs and brood, so the queen seems ok. I assume they are gearing down for winter.

- The Russian hive has NO eggs or brood. I did not see the queen, but she might be there - she's a good hider. Is this normal for the Russians? Will they _completely_ shut down egg laying at this time of year, or have I lost the hive?

I am considering combining the hives so that one hive will then have enough honey to make it to the spring, but not sure if this is too late.

Thanks.
Grid.

"I want experience, and I want it NOW."

[Charlotte]

First off, how many brood chambers do you have? 2 deep, I would assume for Canada...Next, perhaps you put supers on when you really didn't need them yet? Or maybe earlier they had a good supply in the brood nest & you put supers on because they were getting "honey bound?"

Either way- usually the bees will move stores down into the brood nest for winter. You definately do not want to leave supers on over winter if there are no stores in the brood boxes, as all this air space will just equal more cold in the hive. Sometimes I leave a an extra super, plus a backfilled brood nest on Itialians, as they need more for winter..about 150 #. Russians you can get by with maybe as little as 60-75#. They will shut down sooner & have a much smaller winter cluster. Softball size. Sometimes Italians have HUGE winter clusters & use more food, thus leave more honey. So, for your Russians, proably normal. And for the Ital. if you saw eggs, all is proabably well...

Now, for the honey situation. You need to see what is in those brood boxes. This time of year you want things backfilled & be just about done in your hives, as it is getting too late to feed syrup. I would see what you have- move those honey frames down to the brood nest if you need to. Fill from the outer sides in. Leave at least 3-4 frames empty with existing frames in the middle for the russians to cluster and probably 4-5 in the middle for the Italians.

It is getting pretty late to feed syrup. It will put humidity into your hive over winter & cause problems. At this point, I would move those frames of honey down, take off the supers, and lay a piece of tissue paper over the top of each colony & pour dry sugar on top. As much as you can. If you have an imirie shim, put that on to give you more space for sugar. If you happen to have a division board feeder, you could also take off its cover & fill it with sugar too & put it in your top hive body too. If the weather is in the 50's you can check again to see if you need to add more DRY sugar.

Yes, you are right about feeding earlier in the fall. The fall flow is usually uncertain. That is where timing comes in. If you have a flow, great, it allows the bees to top off their stores, maybe make you some fall honey. If you don't have a flow, you may need to feed. Personally, I like to take off the last of my honey when the golden rod here is about into bloom for 2 weeks. Usually around second week of Sept. Then, the rest of the fall flow is for the bees. However, this has been a screwy weather year & I had to feed too. Then I was worried about really late swarms. Go figure!

Good Luck & hope this helps.

p.s. Usually Feb-march is when bees starve..don't be afraid to crack your hives & add more dry sugar then too. If you are just wondering if they are alive in Dec/Jan when you can't open them- get a cheap stethescope from your local farm supply store. About 15-20 dollars. Your should be able to hear the humm of even a very small cluster.

[Grid]

First off, how many brood chambers do you have? 2 deep, I would assume for Canada...

Correct.

Next, perhaps you put supers on when you really didn't need them yet? Or maybe earlier they had a good supply in the brood nest & you put supers on because they were getting "honey bound?"

Around the beginning of August, I put a super of drawn frame on each hive, when both brood chambers were full of brood in the center frames with some honey and pollen in the outside frames. I also put a half-super of foundation on each hive a few weeks later. The Russians drew and mostly filled their half-super, while the Hawaiians did not touch theirs.

Either way- usually the bees will move stores down into the brood nest for winter. You definately do not want to leave supers on over winter if there are no stores in the brood boxes, as all this air space will just equal more cold in the hive. Sometimes I leave a an extra super, plus a backfilled brood nest on Itialians, as they need more for winter..about 150 #. Russians you can get by with maybe as little as 60-75#. They will shut down sooner & have a much smaller winter cluster. Softball size. Sometimes Italians have HUGE winter clusters & use more food, thus leave more honey. So, for your Russians, proably normal. And for the Ital. if you saw eggs, all is proabably well...

Good to hear. I hope you're right.

Now, for the honey situation. You need to see what is in those brood boxes. This time of year you want things backfilled & be just about done in your hives, as it is getting too late to feed syrup. I would see what you have- move those honey frames down to the brood nest if you need to. Fill from the outer sides in. Leave at least 3-4 frames empty with existing frames in the middle for the russians to cluster and probably 4-5 in the middle for the Italians.

The lower brood chambers are completely empty in both hives. The upper brood chambers are full of honey. In the Hawaiian hive only, there is one frame that has some egg and brood in the middle of the frame on both sides. I have a deep super and a half super full of honey in the freezer. This week on a warm day I plan on putting the full super on the Hawaiians in place of the empty one there, and the half-super on the Russians in place of the empty one there.

It is getting pretty late to feed syrup. It will put humidity into your hive over winter & cause problems. At this point, I would move those frames of honey down, take off the supers, and lay a piece of tissue paper over the top of each colony & pour dry sugar on top. As much as you can. If you have an imirie shim, put that on to give you more space for sugar. If you happen to have a division board feeder, you could also take off its cover & fill it with sugar too & put it in your top hive body too. If the weather is in the 50's you can check again to see if you need to add more DRY sugar.

I have put Mite Away II on the hive, and have two weeks of that left. Hopefully things don't get too cold. I put a 3:1 sugar syrup on the hive with entrance feeders (all I have until Monday when my top feeders arrive). Once the Mite Away II is done, (Oct 31), I will stop the syrup and go with dry sugar. At least that is my current plan, given that I screwed up and am a month behind on both feeding and mite treatment.

The Mite Away II said to leave the entrance wide open. That seems like a bad idea this time of year. I think I will reduce the opening again and open the SBB instead.

Yes, you are right about feeding earlier in the fall. The fall flow is usually uncertain. That is where timing comes in. If you have a flow, great, it allows the bees to top off their stores, maybe make you some fall honey. If you don't have a flow, you may need to feed. Personally, I like to take off the last of my honey when the golden rod here is about into bloom for 2 weeks. Usually around second week of Sept. Then, the rest of the fall flow is for the bees. However, this has been a screwy weather year & I had to feed too. Then I was worried about really late swarms. Go figure!

Good Luck & hope this helps.

p.s. Usually Feb-march is when bees starve..don't be afraid to crack your hives & add more dry sugar then too. If you are just wondering if they are alive in Dec/Jan when you can't open them- get a cheap stethescope from your local farm supply store. About 15-20 dollars. Your should be able to hear the humm of even a very small cluster.

Thank you for your reply - anything and everything helps. I have no mentor here, and books only go so far. The local beekeeping group's fall meeting is happening too late for me on this issue. Next year, I know better when to do these things, and to NOT count on a fall flow.

Thanks again.
Grid.

[Grid]

Just checked on them today, and they seem to be doing ok. SBB is covered in dead mites, so the Mite Away II seems to be working. It was a high of 9C (48F) and sunny, and the bees were flying. Saw some returning with Pollen.

My sugar syrup mix was a nice thick clear syrup at home after cooling, but with the cooler outdoor temps it turned into sugar crystal mush, so I'm adding hot water to it daily to help them drink it.

Reduced the entrance, and opened the SBB an inch to compenstate for the MAII. Got stung in the soft part under my left eye. Whoa! That woke me up!

We're looking at another week or so of similar temps, so I have hope that things are going to be ok. Got my bee cozys ready, and my insulated all season inner covers arrive tomorrow. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Cheers.
Grid.