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The Last Beekeeper

28K views 118 replies 35 participants last post by  Happy Honey Farm 
#1 ·
Watching the Last Beekeeper on Planet Green, they are showing commercial bee keepers traveling toCalifornia for Almonds and some of these people are losing 100's of hives for unexplained reasons in the span of two months. They interviewed one lady who lost 75% of bee's!
Scarey!!!

I wish all your commercial guys and gals the very best of luck!
 
#52 ·
I watched the last beekeeper with an open mind. I am not ashamed to admit that a tear or two slid down my cheek. I feel sorry for those that lose so much just trying to make a living.
Keeping my fingers crossed that the solution and or answers bring help to those who must haul their bees for a living. We are all in this together whether we like it or not.
 
#53 ·
I have not seen the film, but talked to a beek today that said he knew two of the three beeks followed in the film. He said one is bankrupt and out of business now, and the second one he knew is just a shiver away from bankruptcy. The third he did not know.
What I do believe is that commercial beekeepers are some of the hardest working businessmen and women that exist in the country. Especially, if you take into consideration the amount of possible return for the work, time, investment, and risk that must be put into it. My small hobby/sideline operation won't bankrupt me if it fails completely. Commercial operators with no other businesses or income is another matter.
My hat is off to each and every one of you!
Laurence
 
#54 ·
I have not seen the film, but talked to a beek today that said he knew two of the three beeks followed in the film. He said one is bankrupt and out of business now, and the second one he knew is just a shiver away from bankruptcy. The third he did not know.
Well you don't have to know them to know that because that was all in the documentary itself.
 
#56 ·
JBG A very good point, however almond pollination(massing of bees togather) is not the cause, I believe the cause is a weakoned immune system, then with bees in a smal area it does allow disease transmission. That said, I think the only big problem would be afb if we didnt have the comprised immune sytem along with NO imported bees. The big question is what is causing the immune system to crash. Once it does then nutrition (drought. monsoon), mites, viruses are all magnified. So it seems we need to fix the immune system. Anyone researched how neonictinoids kill? Do they not weaken the immune system? Down the road when everything comes to light I believe they will make DDT seem like a mole hill and nictinoids a mountain!
 
#58 ·
Yes I agree about the scale issues for sure and the fine point about the overweighting is a good one to consider. I forget the kind of sampling that you have to do but I think you have to be up on Bio-stats and epidemiologic
methods so its not easy. I do see it as more an AIDS like thing where mutiple
immunity factors have been impaired but this is only speculation and we are now way beyond my brain limit on this thread.
 
#62 ·
Yes, I was being overthetop about almonds. However, a big point in "The Last Beekeeper" was that the growth of the almond industry in CA is huge over the last 20 years. Almonds as a %100 bee dependent crop have had an unprecedented impact on the domestic bee population. I have to agree with that. Blueberries, Cranberries, and any other crop just don't have the numbers of colonies and the density in one geographic region. If the bees in the overall US are sick then almonds magnified it.
 
#63 ·
Naaaaaw!
Actually taking our bees to almonds is one of the best things for them.
The last few years, we loaded them up in the cold, drizzle and snow after very few flying days and unloaded them in excellent mid70 degree days.
There, they get right out and take cleansing flights, get fed and generally get off to a really good start on the year.
But then, we don't unload in holding yards.
Our semi's pull right in to the ranch, and are moved in place in one ( long ) evening.
They come home looking awesome.
Sorry if I don't play along with the blame game.
 
#66 · (Edited by Moderator)
The last few years, we loaded them up in the cold, drizzle and snow after very few flying days and unloaded them in excellent mid70 degree days.
There, they get right out and take cleansing flights, get fed and generally get off to a really good start on the year.
I know when I am in and out of Air conditioning I get a cold. It kind of wears on my system. Does taking them out of cold winter an plopping them into 70's with less rest (over winter) then they normally have for the climate they lived in before play a part in the susceptibility of disease for them.
 
#67 ·
No, I cannot say that my bees have ever caught the cold in California.
The next morning after their placement, they orient themselves, take many cleansing flights and then begin hauling in wild mustard pollen by the shovel-full.
Meanwhile we begin slowly and carefully going through the hives feeding pollen sub patties, syrup, and equalizing brood, bees and feed.
Soon the trees begin to bloom and the bees are in good shape.
When the bees are back in Oregon in March they usually have a very good supply of pollen.
Usually they are brooded up very well.
This is good because it allows us to make up a bazillion nucs at that time.
Again, I consider the trip to almonds as one of the best things that happens to our hives during the year.
There are some other crops that we pollinate later (that I will not name :p ) that are VERY hard on the bees and beekeepers.
I am very gratefull for my longstanding relationship with my almond grower and the annual trip to his ranch.
My bees are too! :)
 
#69 ·
JBG
I think you have preconceived notions about migration due to previous media attention and reinforced by this documentary.
John and I have been sending our bees to almonds for 7-8 years and while we have had some problems, nothing like those on the movie and nothing that wouldn't have shown itself here in Wisconsin as well.
While there have been bee collapses out in California I consider the economic risks of the market more of a deterant than disease. Wintering in Wisconsin is no cake walk and our bees are much better in early spring after return from almonds than they ever were when wintering here. This is the case for most of the commercials I know. That said, one needs to have big healthy bees in January to get paid; that is something that those beeks on the documentary failed to provide. As far as I could tell, they were goners before they left their home state. CCD is a sexy buzz word right now and attracts lots of attention but did those colonies have CCD or PPB? The documentary should have made an attempt to answer that question.
Sheri
 
#72 ·
they were goners before they left their home state. CCD is a sexy buzz word right now and attracts lots of attention but did those colonies have CCD or PPB?
Sheri
WHHATTT !!!!!! you can't say THAT.

Calling a SPADE a SPADE. That like calling it the way it is.

Cmon Sheri, you can't come on here and just speak the truth like that. :)

PS. What would Micheal Moore have to say about this.
 
#77 ·
Just the mileage may put you off the idea. Approximately 6,000 miles round trip at $2.50 per mile comes out to $15,000 per semi load from NC to CA and back. So, one semi load of colonies times $125.00 per colony should be about $50,000.00 minus expenses. So, just the mileage takes it down to $35,000.00. There are many more expenses, such as feed (pollen patties and syrup), human lodging and meals. Or maybe sending your colonies to a trusted friend who shares in the income and expenses.

My bees migrate to SC for the winter. I don't want to work hard enough to get my bees in shape for CA and then risk sending them out there for the income. I spend enuf time away from home as it is.
 
#73 ·
Never been to almonds but you can bet my bees would be there if the border were open. It's not hard to figure out. What is better for bees, pollen or cold weather hmmm... It's no surprise that the package bee industry developped there. Almonds make a bunch of bees. The guys need to sell them or the bees will swarm. Essentially all the beekeepers who go there report that for the most part bees come back in good shape. Nice populations and very broody.

I send bees on the prairies after pollination here. Sure the truck ride is rough on them especially if it hot, but they always come back with lots of bees and lots of pollen. They winter better here and they start better next spring. Believe me it's a pretty good plan. The other option is to feed them here. I don't mind hiring someone to burn a little diesel. I mean they make some honey as well to pay for the effort.

If you are going to get educated in the ways of a business , get the info from those who are living it, not those who film about it.

Jean-Marc
 
#75 ·
Skinner:

Figure out how many can fit on a truck. Depends on the type of equipment, doubles or box and half. Also depends on 8 frame or 10 frame. Then add 25% more for the crappy ones that you don't send. Add another 10% for the dead ones. So you roughly need 600-650 alive in the fall for a truckload next february.

Consider moving there if you can afford it. It's easier to manage close by and too collect your money. Selling bees is an option after almonds. Send them on a crop share after in the mid west. Ask Keith, he knows a couple things about that plan. SC seems like a long ways to travel.

Jean-Marc
 
#76 ·
So I am confused. Is CCD real or a sexy buzz word? No doubt it is getting blown out of proportion by the media. That is what this thread is all about now.
What is fact and what is fiction? The film certainly had an anti-almond bias in the M Moore school of everything big in the US is bad. So, with all credit and great respect to the R Miksha book, is CCD a case of simply bad beekeeping?
 
#79 ·
Skinner, we are traditional commercial beekeepers, running traditional colonies, no small cell, no screened bottoms etc. Yes the trips have always been profitable, knock on wood. Some years are better than others and we have been lucky I think. I do know a couple beeks that have taken BIG hits on any given year. I think it is important to work yourself into a position to absorb a disasterous year whether you go to almonds or not, that is just good business management.
We are working on a scale that can absorb some loss (we make it up in volume :D). When a yard isn't looking right we scramble to figure out what is wrong. So far no CCD, hopefully we never see any of that. To date we pretty much know what has caused our losses and and it is usually something we either did or did not do. :rolleyes: They have been in line with what we would expect from wintering on the Wisconsin frozen tundra, but add in the stress of having your bees a thousands miles away. So far, the size of the good ones coming back allows us to make up our numbers here in Wisconsin, plus sell nucs and packages, which is added to the profit/loss equation.

Again, we know many commercials that go to CA every year and while every one of them has ups and downs on colony quality, the roots for that quality almost always goes back to where the bees were and how they were managed 4, 5 or 6 months prior to the orchards. With few exceptions they keep close tabs on their colonies' health. They ALL know where their bees are rented before they ship. They deal with reputable brokers or growers. Most spend considerable time in California putting patties and syrup to them, feeding Fum B, grading and evening them. If you aren't out there and something isn't right the broker, grower or another beek lets you know and you can sometimes get back out to fix it, or the brokers sometimes help. We leave as little to chance as possible.

As far as numbers needed to make a profit, there are too many variables. If you can send them straight out from the home state your best case scenario would be to at least fill one semi which in our case is about 500. If you need to go out to work them of course the more colonies the better the cost is spread around. Some bee clubs have gotten together a semi to share trucking expense and sent them out. We have read at least one catastrophic report on this forum of them losing everything on the load. The past couple years it has gotten very cutthroat and I sure would be careful. Brokers are cutting back, water is a big issue. It is only a profit if your bees are strong (NOT just strong for January), they get contracted and you get paid. All three of those variables are becoming more an issue out there.
Sheri
PS Keith you crack me up:D
 
#80 ·
>>>Is CCD real or a sexy buzz word?

I think it is being used as a catchall phrase for a lot of the problems going on in the industry. I take the view that all these problems are identifiable, but it has taken time to discover that it was really a mix of problems that make up so called CCD. CCD is a handy phrase when talking to the public who are mostly clueless about bees , but have all heard about the problems with bees.Try explaining the interaction of new strains of viruses with Nosema ceranae, neonicotinoid insecticides, and Varroa triggering it all, and their eyes glaze over.
Almond pollination gets the blame because that is where a lot of this crud gets passed around. No need to blame anyone .Thats just the way it is.
 
#81 ·
From my perspective of many decades of experience and some trips to CA before I went all stationary, what's not spoken about is mite treatments, hive inputs and success in CA.

From the 2 dozen of so beeks I know in Wi/MN that go to CA it seems like a pattern of the beeks that have kept their brood comb clean and free of apistan/checkmite and off label miticides have good success in CA and the following summer.

Its typically the same bunch of beeks that complain about heavy losses also have a long history of off label mite treatments. Many fo these guys have enforcement actions from Sodak and MN and have used a myriad of treatments some of which I don't want to mention for fear of someone else trying them.

Comes down to some very experienced beekeepers lost their magic when they started tossing homemade mite treatments (and 2 or more antibiotics/yr, pollen subs, essential oils, syrup etc) into hives multiple times a year and now have contaminated brood comb and a host of problems.

Sure they have lots of experience to draw from etc but playing chemistry set with their bees year after year is not something they have the education or skill to comprehend what the affects mite bee.

Even the top bee researchers will tell you that the synergy between multiple chemical treatments in hives is not something that is well understood. And I'm not sure its something we need to have research conducted on either since some of these are illegal treatments .

I see some newbies and pro's still think that micrograms of trace pesticides brought into hives somehow trumps the massive levels of chemicals and additives that some beekeepers INTENTIONALLY put into their hives multiple times a year.

Getting back to the basics and designing a bee business around the concept I SHALL PUT MINIMAL INPUTS IN MY HIVES AND STRIVE FOR NONE is in my view the key for successful commercial beekeeping for the next decade.

The Last Beekeeper could be more accurately titled: The Last Industrial Beekeeper. Think about it....
 
#83 ·
I SHALL PUT MINIMAL INPUTS IN MY HIVES AND STRIVE FOR NONE
YES, and I thank you for the clarity.

I have to ask is CCD like AIDS? Once the virus is out there due to the extreme practices-yes AIDS was tied to the extreme promiscuity of the era- in this case the extreme stresses of sloppy industrial beekeeping, is everyone now going to pay the price or can it be avoided by safe practices?
 
#84 ·
Again there seem to be unsupported assumptions being made. CCD caused by "sloppy industrial beekeeping"? Puleeeese! There has been no correlation that I am aware of that supports this assumption. In fact, I believe there have been reported cases where the effected beeks were technically treatment free.
The consensus is growing that CCD is a combination of virus/pathogens/nutrition issues that somehow reach a tipping point and cause collapse. The evidence is strongly pointing at IAPV as concurring at this tipping point, as a majority of collapses had this virus and it was very rare in non CCD cases. Is IAPV a cause or a symptom? I think the jury is still out.
Is heavily contaminated comb part of the equation? Remains to be seen.

It doesn't do the industry a bit of good for people to bring their favorite whipping boy to the docks as the cause of CCD. It almost seems like some would wish harm on this important industry just so they can say "I told you so".
Sheri

PS As to what Micheal Moore would say..... He would be outside the labs of Beyer with his bullhorn, I can see it now.:D
 
#85 ·
I was not making an assumption. I was asking about the AIDS/CCD analogy.
HIV/IAPV Bud felt that sloppy industrial beek practice was a predisposing factor, weakening bee immunity which would be analogous to promiscuous anal sex along with drug use weakening human immunity. You think there is no analogy between AIDS and IAPV or CCD it sounds like. I am not so sure.
 
#86 ·
Sorry, JBG, it looked like an assumption to me.
Promiscuous sex and drug use does not cause AIDS, HIV virus does, which can also be transmitted through marital sex or blood transfusions. If a virus is "causing" CCD, mass populations in California may make transmission easier but it does not CAUSE the virus. A single beehive sitting in someone's backyard in Illinois could catch that virus too, whether or not it has clean comb. Comb contamination may have little or nothing to do with CCD.
Perhaps it is a fine line but I think it is an important distinction. If we all decided to suddenly replace all old comb and not use any sort of treatments at all, we would have much less money in the bank (or bigger loans), make the woodenware companies very happy, have a much larger mite problem (a more likely suspect in the losses IMO) and might still be having losses. Jumping to convenient conclusions does no good and does harm while we put too much attention to a "gut" feeling.

A weakened immune system may well be what is making bees more susceptible to collapse but the question is what causes the weakened immune system. Bud zeros in on contaminated comb, citing the beeks he knows that have enforcement actions against them. Maybe he's on to something. Maybe he's hanging around with a bad crew. :D Just kidding, Bud! :lookout:
Kidding aside, contaminated comb has been looked at, both the beekeeper and bee introduced contaminates, along with mono-crop-induced poor nutrition, poor mite control, and a veritable host of viruses. Unfortunately saying "XX" is the cause of all the problems doesn't make it so. If only it were that simple.
If CCD were caused by bad comb it would be replicable. Has that happened yet? I don't think so.
Sheri
 
#87 · (Edited)
.....If CCD were caused by bad comb it would be replicable. Has that happened yet? I don't think so.
Sheri
It is hard to replicate something when folks won't admit to what they have been putting in their hives for fear of regulatory action against them. Off label use of pesticides and chemicals is very common in all areas of American agriculture. I think for some it is easy to justify in the face of the politicization of our regulatory structure. It is unfortunate as it really does complicate the search for a cause when we see things popping up like CCD. There is so much obfuscation and finger pointing (and not just in the beekeeping venue) that I don't think we will ever get to the bottom of it. History is on my side, this sort of thing has come and gone more than once in the past with no real revelation as to the cause. I keep hearing that it is a combination of things but we can't seem to identify the thing that "tips it over the edge". Nature is like that, the stability of many natural systems can be quite fragile making the smallest and seemingly insignificant disruption a possible cause of calamity. I think it is obvious to even a casual observer that nature did not intend for bees to be managed by humans particularly in the ways that modern beekeeping has evolved, so it follows that we are really pushing the envelope when it comes to keeping that un-natural system stable. Eventually something happens to remind us of this fact. So far, between human innovation and dedication coupled with the natural resilience of the bees many of us have kept ahead of it, others have not been so lucky. It remains to be seen how far we can continue to push this envelope.
 
#88 ·
It seems alot of people on here are targeting the commercial beekeepers as the cause of these problems discussed in this post. Honestly, how many of the hobby beekeepers have bought packages to get started? Seems if it were not for the commercial guys there would be a lot less hobby guys.
 
#91 ·
It seems alot of people on here are targeting the commercial beekeepers as the cause of these problems discussed in this post.
You are right. How RUDE to come to the commercial forum and trash commercial operators! No more packages for them. No more queens either.:lookout:
But more importantly, if the commercials go away so will much of the food they eat. Instead of harassing the commercials who are trying to deal with a myriad of newly introduced pests and a tightening profit margin, perhaps they should be picketing the producers of the foods that need bees to pollinate them. Right or wrong, monoculture needs massing of bees to do the job, that is not going to change. Instead of crying about how things used to be and trying to turn back the clock, we should be trying to figure out how to keep our bees healthy in the more challenging environment we are asking them to thrive in.

Now for CCD what are the significant factors, what is the real etiology?
Very good, that is the correct question. Unfortunately there is no definitive answer. They're working on it.
Sheri
 
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