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  1. #21
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    May 2008
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    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
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    2,496

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Just so you know which camp to put me in, I burn whatever cases of AFB that I find in my outfit and haven't used TM for years. And haven't used Tylosin.
    NY...dang yankee...I know what camp to put you in. For the record I bought out an old beeks stuff which had everything you can imagine in them. He never changed out his comb and had every disease known to beekeeping in the 60 or so years he kept bees. I figured that if he could keep going that long how bad could the comb be. Big mistake. Lots of problems and money later I ended up burning all the frames. Now with new frames and comb bees are doing fantastic. I think more commercial guys are catching on. Better to throw on a little feed and have them draw out new comb then keep fighting to fix old comb. Besides if you order in bulk Pierco is running less then a buck a frame...can't beat that plus no work involved in putting it together.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    2,529

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    How about the wild feral colonies? Who treats them? No one, so AFB is everywhere! To many people get into beekeeping to "do there part" and keep pollinators in their area. Too many people preaching chemical free(I would but my bees feed my family!) so the "newbees" do just that. They know very little about bees(and even less about "signs" of disease) and are also a cause(of several causes) to the problem. So that said, I will use preventive treatments. Now unless every asspect of your life and lifestyle is 100% chem and pollutant free, all natural everything please preach to someone else cuz I'm just trying to keep food on the table and looking for a recipe!!!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    >Aren't "extender pattys", in general, considered a contributor to the development of resistant AFB strains?

    Exactly. They are no longer recommended, even by people who believe in using antibiotics, for that reason.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    2,529

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    That's why I am looking for the "correct" recipe that the bees will consume in a 3-4 week time period recieving the proper dosage and not stored away like they would when fed to them in syrup to be consumed over long period. I've used the "dusting" method for preventive treatment since I started bees and now running 900 hives and extracting, doing all the work myself I'm trying to optimize my time and be "Greener" by saving fuel, time and energy. From what I've read AFB is in most hives at a microscopic level but under times of stress it can come out in levels seen by the beekeeper( affected brood).

  5. #25

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Beeslave keep up your work to find a better way. I am amazed by how people on this forum can give advice for not doing something but do not rely on beekeeping as their main income source. They do not understand and they do not care if you fail because it does not effect them or their wallets.

    If I was going to lose my 500 hives to a disease I would find a way to treat it.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    2,529

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Donations wanted- Goal $200,000- Reason-Burning 900 hives and 2,500 supers. I will absorb the $50,000+ on top of the 200k for restocking hardware,bees, lost production etc. .
    Last edited by Beeslave; 08-20-2009 at 10:03 AM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,360

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Let us know how it works out. There was never any proof about extender patties causing resistance, just speculation.
    And we never saw any afb when we used the TM grease patties.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    2,529

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    American foulbrood (AFB) is one of the most important beekeeping diseases. It is caused by the spore-forming bacterium, Bacillus larvae. The spores are resistant to heat and drought and can remain dormant many years.

    For decades, the use of bee inspection and fire in combination were the only things used to fight American foulbrood until antibiotics came along. Now, Terramycin® a tetracycline product, is labelled and used extensively to control the disease. There is evidence, however, that the bacterium can become resistant to antibiotics. This has been seen in Argentina.

    The use of extender patties to administer Terramycin® has provided another possibility as noted by the following message posted to the Bee-L Discussion list:

    Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:55:53 -0800
    From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299"
    Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB

    The spores of the bacteria that causes AFB (Bacillus larvae) are viable for decades. A couple of years ago, the susceptibility to oxytetracycline HCL (the active ingredient of Terramycin®) of cultures from old spores (1924) was compared to the susceptibility of cultures from current (1994) spores.

    Shuimanuki H and D. Knox. 1994. Susceptibility of Bacillus larvae to Terramycin. ABJ Vol 134 No 2 p 125-126.

    Current AFB was found to be just as susceptible as old-time AFB. That result seems better than should have been hoped for, since beekeepers' use of oxytetracline for 40 years was sometimes nearly a recipe for developing bacterial resistance (ie. half-treat active beekeepers' use of oxytetracline for 40 years was sometimes nearly a recipe for developing bacterial resistance (ie. half-treat active infections, use the same product all the time, use uneven or haphazard doses, then throw the half-empty package in the truck til next year, etc.). For some reason, resistant strains didn't survive in the field (or maybe they were infrequent enough that beekeepers weeded them out after the hives died).

    There's been a recent change, though, that makes the appearance of oxytetracycline resistant AFB more likely: widespread, nearly continuous use of antibiotic extender patties. This is the one ingredient that was missing: a continuous selection pressure.

    While continuous vegetable oil patties may be recommended for tracheal mite control, and while the same patty can be used to apply antibiotic, antibiotic extender patties should not be used for months at a time. (The vegetable oil (not the antibiotic) is the active ingredient for tracheal mites). Long-term (months) continuous use of antibiotic extender patties can result in antibiotic residues appearing in an extracted honey crop, and will act to select antibiotic-resistant strains of AFB.

    Antibiotic extender patties can be a useful tool to apply oxytetracycline, but should be used (where they are permitted) only for short periods (just as other methods: medicated syrup, dry application, etc. would be used).

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
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    2,360

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Like I said, just speculation.The resistant strain could just as likely have developed from any of the methods of application,if done haphazardly.
    The first TM resistant strains were widely believed to have come from South America by way of imported honey.
    The point is ,bees still need protection(especially during almonds),and dusting is still effective. We quit using the grease patties as some hives refused to touch them.They weren't under dosed, they weren't dosed at all.
    We have been using hygienic strains for years and afb is never a problem ( and we do look for it).But you know the bees will be exposed to it during almond pollination,and from the guys who don't treat at all,so a little help to the bees is good insurance .

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,287

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by alpha6 View Post
    NY...dang yankee...I know what camp to put you in. For the record I bought out an old beeks stuff which had everything you can imagine in them. He never changed out his comb and had every disease known to beekeeping in the 60 or so years he kept bees. I figured that if he could keep going that long how bad could the comb be. Big mistake. Lots of problems and money later I ended up burning all the frames. Now with new frames and comb bees are doing fantastic. I think more commercial guys are catching on. Better to throw on a little feed and have them draw out new comb then keep fighting to fix old comb. Besides if you order in bulk Pierco is running less then a buck a frame...can't beat that plus no work involved in putting it together.
    And you run how many colonies?
    Education isn't cheap, no matter how you learn what you need to.
    "...dang yankee..."? And what are you? Don't judge a book by it's cover or in my case, someone who has lived in more southern states than I have northern states during my life. I know you were just kidding.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,287

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeslave View Post
    Now unless every asspect of your life and lifestyle is 100% chem and pollutant free, all natural everything please preach to someone else cuz I'm just trying to keep food on the table and looking for a recipe!!!
    Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Me too. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow. It's easier to see the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye than it is to see the plank in your own.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,287

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    With all of the colonies that Varroa destructor have killed, it's a wonder that AFB is regulated as much as it is and Varroa isn't. Can you imagine what shape our industry would be in if colonies of bees w/ high varroa counts had to be burned?

    But I do know that there is a difference. AFB is a brood disease that effects the equipment. And w/ varroa, when the colony dies the varroa are dead too.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,360

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    I agree. Varroa is our number 1 problem. Its not easy keeping large numbers of hives alive and healthy,no matter what anyone thinks.
    The nonchalant way varroa is dismissed by some on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    2,061

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow.
    all true but thats why the florida testing law will be in all states, the label says only for treating actual cases of foul brood, not for use just in case maybe i might get it. The commercial guys like to break the rules then are the first ones to cry when they don't have some chemical to treat whatever is ailing them today. Use the correct chemical and we can all use it alot longer. If you can't check your hives maybe you have to many hives. the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name, like treating with tictac etc, if your crazy enough to put it in writting they should fine you double.

    mike

  15. #35
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Me too. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow. It's easier to see the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye than it is to see the plank in your own.
    What are you saying?? I run my bees without chemicals and it puts food on the table, pays the bills, buys the trucks, etc, etc, etc. To say that in order to run a successful commercial operation you have to use antibiotics and other chemicals is utter nonsense. There are numerous ways to run a healthy operation. Switching out your comb, using EO's, something as simple as feeding your bees with a darth is on, I could go on and on. Hey, if he wants to run tylan in his hives it doesn't affect me, but others here should know there are other ways to run bees successfully without having to use chemicals if you prefer not too. Boy did we hijack this thread or what?
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    2,529

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    "the label says only for treating actual cases of foul brood, not for use just in case maybe i might get it"
    -The label states-for the control of AFB, preventive treatments are controling

    "Use the correct chemical and we can all use it alot longer"
    -Are you suggesting I'm not?

    "If you can't check your hives maybe you have to many hives"
    -I never said I couldn't check them all, just trying to be more efficient

    "the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name"
    -The bad part is when you are not breaking the law you still get ridiculed for it!

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,658

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    "the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name"
    -The bad part is when you are not breaking the law you still get ridiculed for it!

    -----

    The nice part about a site like this is posts that get personal can easily be deleted. The bad part is when it's your post.

    It's clear there are two sides to this topic, and it has strayed from the OP. Let's find a way to express the differing views without getting snide.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    2,061

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post

    The nice part about a site like this is posts that get personal can easily be deleted. The bad part is when it's your post.

    It's clear there are two sides to this topic, and it has strayed from the OP. Let's find a way to express the differing views without getting snide.
    not getting snide. here are the "rules" from the state he lives in.

    http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/env.../2007Tylan.pdf

    says only to be used for know infections

    mike

  19. #39

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    I use lemon grass and tea tree oil in my hives but according to law using them is illegal. same in NY or Colorado or any other state. So EO is considered O.K. but again it is illegal?

    They both are anti viral and anti bacterial but if I use them as a feed supplement to boost the immunitiy of the bee it is o.k. but as a foul brood preventitve I can not use it..

    We share info on this site but I think we should be carefull how we judge since we have not really walked in each others shoes to know what is really going on.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Tylan Extender Patties

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeslave View Post
    Thanks Ernie. Still not exactly what I was looking for but a very good read. I do believe I have it figured out though.
    What did you figure out?

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