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  1. #121

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    I'm inspired to go make some of my own stuff. I would love to see some pics.
    Last edited by JohnK and Sheri; 02-13-2010 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    CHECK FOR POLLEN NOW
    The above statement is made in the July-August newsletter From the U.C. Apiaries, written by Dr. Eric Mussen. It is particularly relevant given the situation in northern Florida over the past two seasons. I am printing it in almost its entirety. In almost every instance the word California can be replaced with Florida. "Most California beekeepers either experienced or heard about calamitous overwintering problems faced by a significant number of our beekeepers a half year ago. Right now we are in that period of time when nature, or the beekeeper, must provide for the needs of the colonies or we will have a repeat performance this coming winter.
    The above statement is one of the most importan rules in keeping your bees healthy and preparing them for wintering.
    Comments are welcomed.
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    This information should apply to our bees in the United States of America!
    ORIGINAL RESEARCH ARTICLE

    Pollen substitutes increase honey bee haemolymph
    protein levels as much as or more than does pollen.
    David De Jong1*, Eduardo Junqueira da Silva2, Peter G. Kevan3, James L. Atkinson4.
    1Genetics Department. Faculty of Medicine, University of São Paulo, 14 049-900 Ribeirão Preto, SP, Brazil.
    2Entomology, FFCLRP, University of São Paulo, 14 049-900, Ribeirão Preto, SP, Brazil.
    3Department of Environmental Biology, University of Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
    4Department of Animal and Poultry Sciences, University of Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
    Received 21 February 2008, accepted subject to revision 31 March 2008, accepted for publication 4 September 2008.
    *Corresponding author: Email: ddjong@fmrp.usp.br
    Summary
    Adequate substitutes for pollen are necessary for maintaining healthy bee colonies during periods of pollen dearth, but testing them
    objectively is both time consuming and expensive. We compared two commercial diets with bee collected pollen and acacia pod flour (used by
    beekeepers in some parts of Brazil) by measuring their effect on haemolymph protein contents of young bees exclusively fed on these diets,
    which is a fast and inexpensive assay. The commercial diets included a new, non-soy-based, pollen substitute diet (named Feed-Bee®) and a
    soy-based diet, named Bee-Pro®. The diets were each given in patty form to groups of 100 Africanized honey bees in hoarding cages,
    maintained and fed from emergence until six days of age. Sucrose, in the form of sugar syrup, was used as a protein free control. Feed-Bee®,
    Bee-Pro®, pollen
    and acacia pod flour diets increased protein titers in the haemolymph by factors of 2.65, 2.51, 1.76 and 1.69, respectively,
    over protein titers in bees fed only sucrose solution. The bees fed Feed-Bee® and Bee-Pro® had their haemolymph significantly enriched in
    protein compared to the controls and those fed acacia pod flour and to titers slightly higher than those fed pollen. All four proteinaceous diets
    were significantly superior to sucrose alone.


    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  4. #124
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Sunday, January 10, 2010

    http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/...ask=view&id=53
    Fat Bees Part 4
    This may explain "Hives Crashing"

    A colony that has reduced brood rearing during dearth may have few remaining young or mid-aged bees, and will therefore not be able to immediately assimilate much protein (remember the loss of momentum mentioned above?). A hungry colony diverts its efforts toward foraging, rather than broodrearing. Mid-aged are specialized to digest the proteins and lipids (fats) in pollen; older forager bees shift their enzymes toward the processing of nectar (or syrup) (Jimenez 1996). When you start feeding protein supplement, older bees are forced to revert to protein processing, and must shift enzyme production and regenerate their hypopharyngeal glands, which takes a bit of time (remember this point when I discuss Nosema ceranae later). Keep this in mind when feeding. A California colony that shuts down broodrearing in late July will not be able to utilize pollen supplement well in late September, since it will have few nurse bees with the proper enzymes. In addition, bees parasitized by the varroa mite become nutritionally compromised, so August mite control is critical for good nutrition.

    nutritionally compromised. Now that sure is a descriptive term

    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    I have been glancing over this thread and have a few comments:

    * The Diamond V yeast motioned will IMO not be a good yeast for bees no matter what you do. It has a very low protein level and consequently can be assumed to have -- in all likelihood -- a high level of non-nutrients or anti-nutrients. Best to buy the yeast from a beekeeper or bee supply, not an animal feed store. Farm animals and chickens have entirely different needs from insects.

    * Suitable yeasts have typical protein levels well over 40%. Make sure the supplies are fresh. Do not use flours more than a few months old.

    * The reason for seeking high protein levels in yeasts and flours is that protein is the major ingredient required and a high protein level means less of all the other things we do not need, and which can depending on amount, be harmful or just useless filer like fibre, ash, esters, non-digestible sugars, starches, etc.

    * Protein level in the finished product is not as meaningful if we use high protein ingredients, since the dilutants are ones we add and know to bee nutrients like sucrose or glucose/fructose and water.

    * Oils, including essential ones can be toxic when fed in more than low amounts. One important oil popularly used has been shown to be toxic when present in amounts over 2%. Oils also become rancid quickly and become toxic if the supplement is not used immediately.

    * The idea that 20% protein levels in supplements are better than lower levels comes from pollen studies where lower protein pollens were found to be much less effective bee food than higher protein pollens. This stands to reason in pollens, since the lower the protein percentage, the more non-protein (and probably non-nutrient or anti-nutrient) components need be consumed to get the required absolute amount of protein. These non-protein components may, worst case, be toxic and best case, a filler.

    * In supplements, the non-protein ingredients (beyond whatever rides along in the yeasts or flours) is sugar or water and we know these are nutrients which bees will be consuming anyhow, not junk in the diet.

    * Therefore, in supplements, the percentage of protein in the final mix is more an indication of value for money than anything else. Example: A 20% mix at $ 2.00 per pound should compare to a 15% mix at $1.50 per pound in efficacy, assuming that each has the same profile of non-protein ingredients and the water and sugar levels account for the difference. Keep in mind though that sugar is not free, so maybe the 15% mix should be valued up at $1.75, say.

    * In Florida, I spent time recently with several beekeepers and a bee nutrition expert of note. Interestingly, they are using a high sugar patty to encourage fast consumption due to hive beetle. The mix is 80% sugar and 20% yeast, plus whatever water is needed. They are quite happy with this.

    * I also spoke to Hack last summer at EAS and he sent me his formula with permission to post it. For those not on BEE-L, here it is. This is not a recommendation.

    Hack's Protein Patty Recipe

    1. 125 lbs. Sugar (Add water and keep wet.
    Should be a little thicker than pancake batter.)
    2. Add either 3 cups citric acid or 4 quarts of lemon
    juice, (this is to put the ph at 4 ½ to 5)
    3. Add 1 cup Honey Bee Healthy (optional , but we prefer)
    4. Add ½ bag Vitamins & Electrolytes (we use Russell’s)
    (2 oz. worth)
    5. Add 10 lbs. pollen (optional)
    (keep the mix wet)
    6. Mix in 25 lbs. of Inedible Dries eggs
    7. Add 3 ½ cups Canola Oil
    8. Mix in 24 lbs. (2 gallons) Honey
    9. Finish by adding 50 lbs. Brewtech Brewers Yeast and water until it has the consistency you desire.
    Last edited by Allen Dick; 02-06-2010 at 02:00 PM.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Thank you for your information.
    I included the highest quality ingredients in all of my formulated supplements.
    My bees look good and so do my customers.
    i recently posted a photo today of an over wintered 5 frame nuc that was fed my nuc formulation.
    It's listed in our Photo Gallery section/form

    Ernie
    Last edited by BEES4U; 02-06-2010 at 04:43 PM. Reason: added a sentence
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    > Thank you for your information.

    This is a very interesting topic. I've appreciated your contributions as well.

    > I included the highest quality ingredients in all of my formulated supplements.

    That is good. Some try to scrimp on ingredients or make do with what is handy. Not a good idea.

    Quality and freshness of ingredients is very important, much more important in fact than trying to figure out additional things to add beyond the basics.

    > My bees look good and so do my customers.

    Glad to hear that.

    Speaking of customers, someone was mentioning adding fumagillan to patties. That makes the patties a drug and subject to regulation.

    For that matter, anyone selling feeds in many states needs to register with the autorities and meet their requirements. That is particularly true of California.

  8. #128
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by allend View Post
    > Thank you for your information.

    For that matter, anyone selling feeds in many states needs to register with the autorities and meet their requirements. That is particularly true of California.
    i provide my customers with more information about the % contents than the BTO's do and that includes the corporations.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    What is a BTO?

    I trust that you don't use secret ingredients, then, but publish your contents? Or do you just provide an analysis?

    Having had some analyses done, I have to wonder if they are much more than a marketing tool. We get the numbers for nutrients we ask for, but what the numbers really mean is a good question, since what we do not get is probably much more meaningful. For example, the protein numbers don't tell us how they break down and bioavailaility, and carb numbers don't give detail unless we ask. Of course the more items and detail in an analysis, the more it costs.

    Other than worries about potential honey contaminants, I suppose the proof is in the pudding, ie. how the bees do in the short run, and long run. Comparisons are helpful, buty very difficult to do.

    As for adding drugs, I think if you are custom mixing, ie. making supplement for one specific customer to that customer's specs, as a contract, you are in the clear. However, it is something to think about and to be careful about because if your product is deemed to be medication or a pesticide, the rules change, as do the authorities which take an interest.

    For one thing, adding medication means that the batch must be labeled and segregated and must be consumed within specified times before honey production. Personally, I feed patties right through the honey season. I wonder if I need to rethink that? (I use Global patties, though, with known, simple food ingredients and not a secret formula).

    Using unnamed and non-food components, salts,or essential oil-type ingredients can have unintended consequences due to potential contamination of honey. Some time back, I heard talk of a situation where a beekeeper or beekeepers were thought by a packer to have been using a prohibited repellant due to traces in the honey of compounds from the breakdown of some supplement ingredients. (One of the larges, best-known proprietary feeds was involved. It has since changed).

    I don't know how it was resolved, and I don't think the honey was condemned, but we are now entering times where increased scrutiny of foods is routine and unthinkably tiny amounts of contaminants can be detected. Even if detection does not result in condemnation of honey, it reduces the potential market and price.

    Some beekeepers have tended to be very cavalier about what they put into beehives, but the days of flying uder the radar may be over soon.
    Last edited by Allen Dick; 02-07-2010 at 04:44 AM. Reason: added some thoughts

  10. #130
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    Lightbulb Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by allend View Post
    I suppose the proof is in the pudding, ie. how the bees do in the short run, and long run. Comparisons are helpful, buty very difficult to do.
    Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    > Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub.

    Not sure what you are saying here. If you are saying comparisons are easy, I suppose you are right.

    I'll agree that it is usually not too hard to prove what people want to believe, especially to an uncritical audience.

    What I was trying to say was that honest, valid comparisons are very difficult unless there are huge and obvious and repeatable differences, and no outside influences, which usually there are not.

    I have observed scientific comparisons of feed formualas and seen how many confounding factors can skew the results. I have run a few studies myself and found every time that many unexpected things can intervene, potentially influencing the results.

    Some of us have considered how best to do independant tests to compare the many products on the market and concluded that getting fresh, typical samples and applying them to comparable hives under a variety of conditions is no small task.

    Most subs work now, even some which were pretty poor in the past. The questions now are

    * which ones give best value for the money and
    * which ones are safe to use in honey producing hives

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by allend View Post
    > Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub.


    Most subs work now, even some which were pretty poor in the past. The questions now are

    * which ones give best value for the money and
    * which ones are safe to use in honey producing hives
    __________________________________________________ _______
    This concept is very important. There's a major difference between Crude protein and digestible protein in any feed ration. For example, chicken feather meal is listed as ?? % crude protein. But, you will find it difficult to find out the digestible protein and it has been used as a filler in other animal feed rations for many years.
    They all should be "safe" if I interpret the term safe meaning that there are00.00% added medications.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  13. #133
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    > This concept is very important. There's a major difference between Crude protein and digestible protein in any feed ration. For example, chicken feather meal is listed as ?? % crude protein. But, you will find it difficult to find out the digestible protein and it has been used as a filler in other animal feed rations for many years.

    What do they say?... "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure"?

    Melamine was another, and it was toxic, but it made the protein in feeds look higher in nitrogen tests.

    Some cat foods appeared to have a perfect nutitional balance, but proved to cause urinary problems as cats aged. We are still warned to avoid some of the cheap brands if we like our cats. (I had one guy write me. He had looked on a cat food bag and liked the nutritional profile and was planning to grind it, add sugar and feed it to his bees. I can't wait to hear how it works out

    > They all should be "safe" if I interpret the term safe meaning that there are00.00% added medications.

    That is important. We had a homemade magic formual peddled here in Canada some time back which quite a few commercial guys fell for, and which even got endorsed by a provincial apiarist. It was eventually found to contain Neomycin. Some of us knew all along that it had be fishy, but not how.

    About three decades ago, I tested a pollen substitute dreamed up by a retired veterinarian. He had done plenty of studying and figured he had hit pay dirt. So I put it on every other hive in a row.

    When I checked the next day, many of the bees drifted from those hives to the nearby hives which I had not fed.Turned out it was a better bee repellant than pollen sub. That was the end of that idea

    One thing I worry about is the breakdown of some ingredients like eggs if they are used and the ration gets stored for a while or not consumed quickly. Decomposition can give off substances which could trigger a regulatory close scrutiny and/or rejection of honey as in the case I mentioned earlier.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Nutrition Facts
    Vitamin C 25%
    This was taken off my breakfast ham. Kraft Foods. Oscar Mayer
    19 March 2010
    So, What's the 25% vitamin C doing added to a 2,000 caloriie diet listing?
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    > Vitamin C 25%... This was taken off my breakfast ham. Kraft Foods. Oscar Mayer
    19 March 2010...So, What's the 25% vitamin C doing added to a 2,000 caloriie diet listing?

    Probably percentage of the RDA for Vitamin C in a 2,000 calorie diet.

    We don't have RDAs for bees yet, unfortunately.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Minumum Daily Requirements are going to be difficult to establish for bees. BTW: It's sodium ascorbate that's added to the ham to preserve it until March.
    I can add pure vitamin C to my formulations because it has been proven and observed to enhance brood rearing in bees.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Acids are traditional additions to insect diets. Vitamin C is probably beneficial if not overdone.

    "Tang" was the secret ingredient in some California diets going back two decades or more.

    Some use the acids to lower the pH, but it all depends on the other ingredients. I personally don't consider pH to be all that important, but I could be convinced...

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by BEES4U View Post
    I can add pure vitamin C to my formulations because it has been proven and observed to enhance brood rearing in bees.
    Ernie
    Can you expand upon that? Did you do a controled experiment? How much more brood was generated from the vitamin C? What amount of vitamin C was added to your mix? Any info. you can provide is appreciated.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    [
    Good morning Matt,
    It's a little wet up and down the state.
    I can provide you with answers to your questions.
    However, I have the time spent researching and I am disinclined to give it up for the asking.
    Thank you. But, not at this time
    Ernie
    Last edited by honeyman46408; 02-13-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: UNQ
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Well heck...

    Jeff Pedis ( USDA) group did a study with Lyle Johnstons group of bees this fall on the brood counts in Calif, Nutra Bee again was at the top with the most cm of brood, nutra bee fed hives were double on avg of brood.

    Getten back under the bus now.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

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