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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Bowling Green, Kentucky
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    420

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    anybody ever try substituting some buckwheat flour for the soy flour. not taking out all of the soy just some of it.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    whatcom co, WA
    Posts
    110

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Ernie,

    thank you for all the input.

    I tried small batches just to see if the bees would take it/ how quickly (using raw egg). I also have some sitting out so I can take a guess as to how long it takes for it to spoil.

    One with just the yolk, uncooked,
    One with the whole egg (white included)

    I didn't see any noticeable difference in consumption rate (also compared to patty w/ no egg)


    ~Are you using the egg whites/ if not what do you do with them?

    ~Any more info about the suitability of egg white in pollen sub mix is appreciated.

    ~Is your protein content calculated or tested? If calculated would you be willing to share info you are using for the hard boiled egg yolk?

    thank you.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    3,637

    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    bfriendly,
    One with just the yolk, uncooked,
    One with the whole egg (white included).Bees can not digest the egg whites.

    I didn't see any noticeable difference in consumption rate (also compared to patty w/ no egg)


    ~Are you using the egg whites/ if not what do you do with them?
    I gave most of them to a friend to feed her dogs, i fed some to my dog and I ate some
    ~Any more info about the suitability of egg white in pollen sub mix is appreciated.
    I have some very good information that I will post after my nap today.

    ~Is your protein content calculated or tested?

    If calculated would you be willing to share info you are using for the hard boiled egg yolk?
    Here's some of my data that I am currently using.
    Calculated: Dried egg yolks are 2gm of protein/5 gm serving where a serving is = 2.5 teaspoons. So, 2gm/5gm = 40% protein
    __________________________________________________ ___

    Nutrient Breakdown


    ASSAYED NUTRIENT VALUES FOR A LARGE RAW EGG*
    Based on 59 g. shell weight with 50 g. total liquid whole egg, 33.4 g. white and 16.6 g. yolk
    NUTRIENT AND UNIT WHOLE WHITE YOLK
    Proximate
    Water 37.66 29.33 8.1
    Food energy--calories. 75 17 59
    Protein (N x 6.25)--g. 6.25 3.52 2.78
    Total lipid--g. 5.01 -- 5.12
    Total carbohydrate--g. 0.61 0.34 0.3
    Ash--g. 0.47 0.21 0.29
    _________________________________________________

    Composition of chicken egg yolk
    15.86 g./100gms= 15.86 or 16 % Protein.

    Chicken egg, yolk, raw, freshNutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
    Energy 320 kcal 1330 kJ

    Carbohydrates
    3.59 g
    Fat
    26.54 g
    Protein
    15.86 g
    Water
    52.31 g
    Vitamin A equiv. 381 μg
    42%
    Thiamine (Vit. B1) 0.176 mg
    14%
    Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 0.528 mg
    35%
    Pantothenic acid (B5) 2.990 mg
    60%
    Folate (Vit. B9) 146 μg
    37%
    Calcium 129 mg
    13%
    Iron 2.73 mg
    22%
    Magnesium 5 mg
    1%
    Phosphorus 390 mg
    56%
    Potassium 109 mg
    2%
    Zinc 2.30 mg
    23%
    Choline
    682.3 mg
    Cholesterol
    1234 mg
    _______________________________

    I hope that I didn't give you to much data.

    Good Luck,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    3,637

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    anybody ever try substituting some buckwheat flour for the soy flour

    Ans.
    It will depend on the avaiability, particle size, digestability and % Crude protein.
    The soy flour that we use is toasted for better nutrition.
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    whatcom co, WA
    Posts
    110

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Ernie,
    Could you please elaborate on why toasted soy is preferred vs other options?

    Also I have heard several times / read online that one should not use soy meal (I have seen some where the particle size is fine enough), I can not find why you should not use it. I find soy meal listed as an ingredient several places online, such as: here but I wonder if this could be a misprint.

    Slick, I have no information to offer about buckwheat, but like you, I wonder about other products (particularly flax as mentioned in another post). I was able to find this: The nutritional value of flax meal for swine

    Thanks for all the valuable info in this thread.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    3,637

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Here's one source:
    http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/Beefeeds.html



    Soy flour – Soy flour is the main non floral protein supplement for honey bees rations.

    It comes in two forms, either Expeller press which has 6% soy oil, or Defat soy flour (chemically extracted) which has only 2% soy oil. The crude protein level is 48% 50%. Soy flour is more of an adult bee feed and appears to assist in making adult bees more active while on a honey flow.

    Expeller press soy flour is more palatable to the bees than defat soy flour. This was demonstrated in trials conducted on the preference or palatability of protein feed for bees, Expeller press soy flour is good when there is limited pollen available. Defat soy flour is satisfactory when reasonable volumes of low quality ground flora pollen is being collected by the bees.

    Most Australian pollens have low levels of the essential amino acid iso leucine. Soy flour has reasonably high quantities of this amino acid, which makes it a useful supplement in supplying additional total protein and iso-leucine.

    Soy flour is reasonably cheap being around 80¢/kg. For this reason in any ration it can be used up to ¾ by weight of the total ration.
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    3,637

    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Here"s another source:
    http://www.entomology.msstate.edu/ne...eenews0306.htm


    Several pollen supplements/substitutes have been used but soy flour has been the ingredient of choice because of its attractiveness to honey bees, availability, cost and high protein content. No pollen supplement/substitute entirely replaces the nutritional value of pollen. Because soy flour is low in vitamin B complex, yeast (Brewers, bakers) is commonly added to soy flour in the preparation of pollen substitutes/supplements. Soy flour is produced by a variety of methods, but �expeller proceed soy� (obtainable from Kelley�s) is superior because it has the highest protein level and the lowest level of anti-nutritional factors. Soy flour is either fed alone or as the main ingredient in pollen supplements. Recipes for supplements/substitutes are varied and can be adjusted according to the following:

    Pollen - 10-25%

    Soy Flour - 20-100%

    Yeast - 20-25%

    Sugar/honey/water - 20-50%
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Do any of you use this , Ascorbic acid, in your Pollen Supplement Patties or do you use lemon juice?

    Product Name:
    Ascorbic Acid (L-Ascorbic Acid), USP, Food Grade
    $135.00/Lb!
    I know where there are a lot of ripe lemons and I might stat extracting the juice vs the high price of Ascorbic acide.
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,271

    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Ernie, heres the Vitamin C I use in pollen sub:
    http://www.puritan.com/c-vitamins-10...3162?NewPage=1
    ---Mike

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Big Grin Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. Laury View Post
    Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you.
    Good one Tom. lol Maybe Ernie will have eggs for lunch.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  12. #52
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    Oct 2007
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    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you.

    Ther's one outside town about 5 miles.
    Man, those boiled eggs are a killer on my GI tract.
    I think that I should take some of the bees probiotics so that I am allowed back in Denny's LOL.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  13. #53
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    Oct 2007
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Ernie, heres the Vitamin C I use in pollen sub:

    Mike, thank you for the source. I should have checked them out too.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Here's some history on soy protein:

    Soy protein {90%protein (N x 6.25) on a moisture-free basis} has been available since 1936 for its functional properties. In 1936, American organic chemist Percy Lavon Julian designed the world's first plant for the isolation of industrial-grade soy protein. The largest use of industrial grade protein was and still is for paper coatings, in which it serves as a pigment binder. However, Dr. Julian's plant must have also been the source of the "soy protein isolate" which Ford's Robert Boyer and Frank Calvert spun into an artificial silk that was then tailored into that now famous "silk is soy" suit that Henry Ford wore on special occasions. The plant's eventual daily output of forty tons of soy protein isolate made the Soya Products Division into Glidden's most profitable division.

    At the start of WWII Glidden sent a sample of Julian's isolated soy protein to National Foam System Inc.{today a unit of Kidde Fire Fighting} of Philadelphia,PA which used it to develop Aero-Foam the US Navy's beloved fire-fighting bean soup; and while not exactly the brainchild of Percy Lavon Julian it was the meticulous care given to the preparation of the soy protein that made the fire fighting foam possible. When a hydrolyzate of isolated soy protein was fed into a water stream, the mixture was converted into a foam by means of an aerating nozzle. The soy protein foam was used to smother oil and gasoline fires aboard ships and was particularly useful on aircraft carriers. It saved the lives of thousands of sailors. [1]
    In 1958, Central Soya of Fort Wayne, Indiana acquired Julian's Soy Products Division (Chemurgy) of the Glidden Paint Company, Chicago. Recently, Central Soya's (Bunge) Protein Division, in January,2003, joined/merged with DuPont's soy protein (Solae) business, which in 1997 had acquired Ralston Purina's soy division, Protein Technologies International (PTI) in St. Louis. Eighth Continent, an "ersatz" soy milk, is a combined "venture" product of DuPont's and General Mills.

    Food-grade soy protein isolate first became available on October 2, 1959 with the dedication of Central Soya's edible soy isolate, Promine D, production facility on the Glidden Company industrial site in Chicago. An edible soy isolate and edible spun soy fiber has also been available since 1960 from the Ralston Purina Company in St. Louis, who had hired Boyer and Calvert. In 1987, PTI became the world's leading maker of isolated soy protein.

    Regards,
    Ernie
    Last edited by BEES4U; 09-13-2009 at 06:12 AM. Reason: added bold
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Inositol reminder!

    However, a final concentration of 4.5 mg inositol, a vitamin, in each gram of the artificial food, enabled bees to rear normal brood through the adult stage during a test period of 72 days.

    Are any of you adding this to your Pollen Supplements?

    Comments?
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    The following data is very interesting!
    Abstract
    Use of prebiotics, nondigestible dietary ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth of and/or activating the metabolism of health-promoting bacteria in the intestinal tract, is a novel concept in aquaculture. Two separate feeding trials were conducted to evaluate graded levels of a commercial prebiotic Grobiotic™AE, a mixture of partially autolyzed brewers yeast, dairy ingredient components and dried fermentation products, in the diet of hybrid striped bass, as compared to partially autolyzed brewers yeast (Brewtech®). The basal diet in both trials was formulated to contain 40% protein, 10% lipid and an estimated digestible energy level of 3.5 kcal/g. Two levels (1% and 2% of diet) of Grobiotic™AE and brewers yeast were added to the basal diet with menhaden fish meal and menhaden oil adjusted to provide isonitrogenous and isolipidic diets. Each diet was fed to five (trial 1) or three (trial 2) replicate groups of juvenile hybrid striped bass in 110-l aquaria twice daily at rates approximating apparent satiation for 7 weeks (trial 1) or 4 weeks (trial 2).

    Enhanced growth performance was generally observed in fish fed the diets supplemented with Grobiotic™AE or brewers yeast compared to the basal diet after 7 weeks of feeding in trial 1.


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...b6e5251192b8a7

    Regards,
    Ernieedb9af7
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  17. #57
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    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Up-date on Ernie's "Pollen Puddding Supplement."
    I used some pH indicator strips, non-bleeding type, and they all indicated a pH of 5.0 which I think is good.

    Comments,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by BEES4U View Post
    Up-date on Ernie's "Pollen Puddding Supplement."
    pH of 5.0 which I think is good.

    Comments,
    Ernie
    Yes I have a comment.... lol What about the protein & fat levels ?

    Lets get down too the ham & eggs.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  19. #59
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    Oct 2007
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    Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    What about the protein & fat levels ?

    Protein: 16.46%

    Sugar: 48.47%

    Pollen: 18.36%

    Fat: The % is to be determined. ( I added a 50:50 mix of Canola oil and corn oil.)

    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  20. #60
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by BEES4U View Post
    What about the protein & fat levels ?

    Protein: 16.46%

    Sugar: 48.47%

    Pollen: 18.36%
    egards,
    Ernie

    Ernie, Protein & pollen ? Is this done by a lab Ernie or on a spread sheet?

    Keith
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

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