Dealings with Long Creek Apiaries

[handyman dave]

"Originally Posted by handyman dave: To top it off, now he says he has no record of my order!"

As Paul Harvey would say "here is the rest of the story". What I said was I did not see his order on my computer. As I also explained, I am in the process of migrating everything from windows to linux and it is possible that his order got misplaced in the shuffle of moving everything. I never said I couldn't find his order or his order didn't exist.

Here is his entire, uncut and unedited, actual message received on 6/22. Judge for yourself about the "rest of the story".

I can't find an order for you. Are you wanting to place an order? We aren't taking any more orders for packages this year. Sorry.

Obvious, blatant prevarication IMO.

I will gladly report when I receive my refund, now 15 months missing, but I am not holding my breath.

[G3farms]

Beemaster............with 45 years of experience under your belt it is sad to see you retire, I have never been to you apiary, but you must have a fairly large set up. Sounds to me like you yourself need to concentrate on working the bees and let someone else run the front office for you.

Sounds kind of sad for all involved on both sides of the fence.

G3

[handyman dave]

Just this morning I received a message on my voicemail from David Winters / LCA. He cheerfully advised me that my package has shipped and should arrive Monday.
If this proves to be true I will be relieved.
I will keep you posted.

[OrionBee]

If you are in the East TN area, I suggest getting bees from K&K bee supply in Jonesborough. The have provided me with customer service, support and great products.

Mr. Winter -- The only reason you have very few problems locally is because people can actually do something about it. I called in June 2008 to pick up my package of bees from you. You stalled up until July, and by that time it was too late. You have used every excuse under the sun with these people and many more that have not complained here. and do not even think about sending a PM to see what my real name is -- it just might surprise you to who I am.

On a side note, I did contact the TN state Apiarist Mike Studer by phone. You blatantly lied again. You are not the only registered package producer in the state. There is one near Knoxville AND Centerville that i can at the moment remeber..

And according to the TN Apiary Law of 1995 which was posted on your website as well as elsewhere, I shall point all people interested to Section 9 a of stated law

SECTION 9. (A) No bees may be sold, offered for sale, moved, or transported, shipped or delivered within the state, unless they have been inspected by an appropriate official of the state and certified to be apparently free of infectious or contagious regulated bee diseases and pests in accordance with rules and regulations promulgated under this chapter.

I will post a link to the version that the state has as soon as I can find it. I wouldn't be surprised if that particular page just suddenly disappeared.

Another lie that can be busted is that LCA is a two person operation, the owner and the son. It is not a corporate operation at all, just incorporated so that if the corporation gets sued, then he won't loose any money as the goal is to keep the corporation broke.

It would be fun to print this out and or email this whole page to members of local associations...... but I will refrain from that kind of act.

[beemaster01]

If you are in the East TN area, I suggest getting bees from K&K bee supply in Jonesborough. The have provided me with customer service, support and great products.

I agree. Ken is a good person. Mickey Hardeman is a good breeder. Ken has a standing order for packages from Hardeman Apiaries and can get them early.

On a side note, I did contact the TN state Apiarist Mike Studer by phone. You blatantly lied again. You are not the only registered package producer in the state. There is one near Knoxville AND Centerville that i can at the moment remeber..

Technically that is true. Any beekeeper in Tennessee that has been inspected by Mike can sell package bees, nucs, etc. So there potentially could be many registered, qualified or however you want to state it. Here is outside link to the Tennessee Apiary Law of 1995: http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpEx...=templates&2.0

Everyone here is great!!! I don't think I will quit after all. There is just too much work to be done breeding the ultimate bee. I just can't let a few people cheat many beekeepers out of good bees After all, where else can everyone have so much FUN.

The rest of the post, I will not qualify it with a response

[greengecko]

... I have never been to you apiary, but you must have a fairly large set up.

Google Maps N 35 59.316, w 83 0.535

[yoop]

I have been following this thread for months and would like to add that I am another unsatisfied customer. I would have written earlier but the owner or representative for Long Creek was threatening to cancel already placed orders.

Isn't that terrible, a business to whom you've sent hundreds of dollars and waited on for more than a year threatening to arbitrarily cancel the orders of customers who have complained? That, if no other reason, was enough to halt all my dealings with this apiary.

Since the season is too late for me, I've cancelled my order with him. So now I can complain...

I ordered last year and week after week received no updates on promised (and failed to deliver) ship dates. Take a vacation? Schedule all day activities? No, had be to ready to get the bees. I kept expecting packages, none would arrive, then (if I could even get ahold of them) excuses and new ship dates.

My suggestion to Long Creek and others:

*When a customer places an order, give them a numerical order number. During shipping season, update the list of order numbers that have been shipped out DAILY on the website. This way a customer has a feel for how far off his or her order is (eg orders 25-57 shipped this week, and I'm order 63) AND knows that the supplier isn't shipping to preferred customers first.

*DO NOT promise ship dates or make excuses. Make it clear that these are ONLY GUESSES. I would have rather been told upfront once it became clear that my order was unlikely to ship last year (or this year for this matter). Because I kept waiting patiently, I wasn't able to secure another source in time and a season was wasted. Communicate, communicate, repeat, repeat.

*Place order money in escrow and refund immediately when it is clear the order won't ship. Although I'm sure last year's money was spent immediately, I keep wondering what kind of interest you can get on who-knows how many thousands of dollars for 6+ months.

*DO NOT EVER THREATEN CUSTOMERS! It still boggles my mind that he did this.

To customers, a tip: Insist your bee supplier accept credit cards. They don't like to do it for many reasons, but one is that credit card companies can FORCE a return on your money.

[handyman dave]

The bees did arrive today and at first glance,they seem healthy. The quantity looked good as I shook them out and the queen looks fat and she and her helpers look active. FINALLY!

Don't get me wrong, I am grateful that I finally got the bees I ordered over a year ago. (I had honestly given up all hopes of getting either the bees or the money.)

However, no matter how wonderful the bees prove to be, that does NOT excuse the lack of communication, the endless stonewalling, the limitless excuses.

He may have a long years of experience with bees but none of that tender care has been conveyed to his human customers. So, until Long Creek learns the value of excellent communication and prompt refunds, I would NOT send them money, any money, under any circumstances.

[wolfpenfarm]

To customers, a tip: Insist your bee supplier accept credit cards. They don't like to do it for many reasons, but one is that credit card companies can FORCE a return on your money.

Well there is a problem with that yoop, i won't take CC's for several reasons of which one is that too much fraud goes on and the vendor gets screwed. People order stuff with a cc, then file claim that they never receive it and then CC company reverses charge. Can't protect yourself from them.

I take cash but i only charge a deposit, then once item is ready to ship, do i require the balance. thats fair. I used to not charge a deposit but i had so many people on here that ordered stuff, then once i got it done, they said oh i already bought from so and so they were cheaper. thats just as bad as a vendor not treating customers right.

I do take a paypal thats as close to CC as i get.

[A2 Bee Man]

There's just one question that no one, not even Mr. Winters of LCA, has been able to answer: How is it that there are still people who have not received their orders, or are just now receiving their orders (many of whom placed their orders last year) . . . when the order I placed in January 2010 was shipped (albeit 7 weeks late) in June? Why did I receive my order before all these others who ordered before me? The only two possible reasons are, (1.) LCA is completely disorganized in their record-keeping, and/or (2.) I immediately took action with both a written complaint to the Eastern Tennessee BBB and a postal fraud complaint with the US Postal Service.

[bobber128]

I gotta say, I'm absolutely shocked at what I've read here. 15 months waiting for a refund?!?!?! No response to email/ voicemail?!?!? Threats to customers?!?!?! I am practically speechless..... Luckily, I can sit and sort through the shock of the last 14 pages before I type.

Mr Winters, I can say, without a doubt, I will not be doing any business with LCA. Not because of the delays in shipment, or because of the lack of communication, or even because of the complaints raised here. The singular reason for me saying this is your attitude when complaints are brought up. It seems to me that everyone that has posted here has had a very legitimate complaint. You then turn it around and attack them for voicing those complaints, in an effort to help other people avoid being put in the same situation.

Also, you made the following statement: "I will not move orders just because someone complains." However, it seems, based on this thread, that you do just that. A short 6 hours after handyman dave printed the text from your message sent 6/22, he posted you contacted him and his bees were shipped. And A2 Beeman responded on 06-12-2010 that he had received his bees only after threatening litigation on 06-08-2010. It seems that you absolutely WILL move orders just because someone complains, but only if they complain to the right people (or threaten to complain to the right people).

I don't know you as a person, and I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because that is absolutely not the case. However, the attitude I've seen here is enough for you to lose me as a potential customer. Good luck in all you do in the future, and I fervently hope you succeed in whatever path you choose, be it continuing LCA, retirement, or simply focusing on "breeding the ultimate bee."

[Three of Us]

I ordered in October 2009 and received nothing. I just filed a complaint with the Post Office for mail fraud.

I would have been happy if he just returned a phone call, sent an email, or a letter explaining that he has problems and what he was going to do to correct the issue.

[beez2010]

Don't look now, but it looks like Mr. Winters has the apiary for sale....the hives that is! According to a scrolling message on his home page, 150+ hives full of bees and honey are for sale for $175.00 each! This jerk (who won't communicate with me either) owes me $300.00!

Gee, I wonder if he intends to refund everyone's money with what he gets from selling their bees....s

[beemaster01]

Gee, I wonder if he intends to refund everyone's money with what he gets from selling their bees....s

That is the plan.

[BeeCurious]

Beemaster01,

Why don't you do yourself a big favor and simply stop responding to
the postings here. Deal with the people who trusted their money with
you via email or snail-mail.

If you continue to do business, I think you might want to sell to
people who are willing to drive to your location to pickup their bees.
I suspect that the beekeepers within driving distance of you have had
fewer complaints...

Beemaster01,

Some members have tried to give you some advice without attacking you. Since you insist on continuing this thread I have a few questions for
you.

1. What was the issue that caused you to be removed from Charlie Harper's "Russian Honeybee Breeders Association"?

(The more technical the issue, the more I'm interested in the answer.)


2. Another "Consumer Report" thread has been viewed 18,565
times... Do you think that the "Dealings with Long Creek Apiary"
thread can top that?

Not long ago you wrote:

Everyone here is great!!! I don't think I will quit after all. There
is just too much work to be done breeding the ultimate bee.

3. Is "breeding the ultimate bee" easier than returning five or six checks by the mail?

Beemaster01,

Having seen how this issue played out (with five customers), is there
anything you wish you had handled differently?

[greengecko]

1. What was the issue that caused you to be removed from Charlie
Harper's "Russian Honeybee Breeders Association"?

(The more technical the issue, the more I'm interested in the answer.)

Having met the man, seen his operation, owned bees from his stock and being Far Eastern Stock "Russian Bee" aficionados we wouldn’t miss this for the world.

[OrionBee]

Last year after getting the run around and too many excuses I tracked the man down and brought my two packages back. Both Long Creek queens were superseded within a year.

I did have the same problem as well. One question that i do ask you is, did they get a little aggressive at any point for no apparent reason? I thought for a while that they were all bipolar.and by the way, what was the mite count like? for being so called "hygienic" and "mite resistant" I certainly had more mites than I could handle and ended up in the end getting a new queen after seeing the constant supersedure cells (so nobody can contest my knowledge, the top part of the frame) . Since then, my drop of mites since then has been only two or three a month. Still many more where those came from.

I would also love to know what his winter survival rate for his packages and or queens are if any body could supply that kind of info.

[greengecko]

One question that i do ask you is, did they get a little aggressive at any point for no apparent reason?

No, they remained gentle.

[greengecko]

LONG CREEK APIARIES WEBSITE PAYMENT TERMS:

"We do not accept credit cards. Although laws were passed to protect credit card users, credit card companies have found other ways to unfairly take more of the consumer's money. We feel that the only way that you can combat that kind of thing is to fight back with your wallet. In the spirit of that fight, we no longer accept credit cards so our customers can not be cheated."

[Mike S]

I also have ordered bees from LCA and have not received them yet. I was told when I ordered they would ship on 6-7-10 and they never arrived that week. I called, wrote e-mails, and finally was able to contact them in about a week. They told me they had not received payment for the bees and thats why they didn't ship them. I assured him my check and processed through the bank back in April and I would be glad to fax him a copy or scan and e-mail it. After some digging through his papers he found where I had paid and promised to ship on 6-28-10 and still no bees have arrived, said his computer had not been updated properly. My wife was able to contact him again night before last and he had another week delay due to the high heat and is suppose to ship now week of 7-5-10 and we will see. Wish I had found this thread prior to April before I sent my check. Its not a huge lot of money to lose buts its just the idea of being ripped off like so many more people have been on this thread, not counting the who knows how many thats not on this thread. Also its the aggravation of setting up the hives and planning on being off work to get the bees installed when they arrive. I would be ashamed to face the public if I had treated so many people this way as Long Creek Apiaries has. This would have to be a huge let down or discouragement if you were just starting out in the bee keeping hobby and these were your very first packages. I hate to see this happening in the bee world, well anywhere in the good old USA as far as that goes.

Well Beemaster01 I'm still here waiting with fingers crossed hoping to see some bees before its too late to get them established before winter if its not already. I have been nice and polite, tried to hold off typing on this thread but I'm only human, I cant imagine how mad some of these people are that have waited over a year or since last year. If your not going to send them I wish you would just go ahead and tell me so I can pull the hives back in to storage before they just sit out empty and go to waste and rot, I work too hard on them just to see them go to waste. I hope I see some packages before you get your hives all sold, are you planning on packing up and moving out too? It is going to be very difficult to ever recommend your business to anyone no matter what kind of quality bees your have, I don't care if their super bees ( your ultimate bee). Your not that far away and I'm down there several times a year anyway, I cant wait to see your operation and I will be by for a visit.

Mike Smith
Louisa Ky.