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  1. #1
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    Default Microbes in Nutrition

    Ok... would sombody please come foward with this easy answer????
    lol....

    How do we get a balance of microbial community within the hive.

    I feel this is our most unanswer question in the beekeeping industry today and the answer to nosema and a few others problems were all having.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Ok... would sombody please come foward with this easy answer????
    lol....
    Could the easy answer possibly lie in your pollen patties???


    Corrective treatment for microbial activity has done amazing things to dairy cattle, specifically cattle that receive antibiotic therapy(terramycin anyone?). It is an often overlooked area of health as it cannot be seen by the naked eye.
    I got into bees thinking that genetics and correct nutrition were the two most underutalised tools in the trade. I've seen what having the correct combination of both can do to animals. It is the difference between thrive and just survive.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by cow pollinater View Post
    Could the easy answer possibly lie in your pollen patties???
    It is the difference between thrive and just survive.
    You know CP, I call the surviving stock, are the beekeepers that buy bees from the thriving stock. lol... thats for the boys in sc Texas.

    But, I do strongly believe that Nutrition plays a major... major role.

    It seems in the bee industry that we trail all ag fields in the nutrition field. Why are we as an industry so far behind?
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post

    It seems in the bee industry that we trail all ag fields in the nutrition field. Why are we as an industry so far behind?
    I suspect it's because much of the "feeding" that bees do is on their own and beyond our control, rather than pasturing feedlot-ing and baled feed that is the bulk of intake for other types of livestock.

    In other animals, humans included, a "balanced" gut flora varies hugely based on diet, health, age, environment and a lot of other factors. An example is the recommendation to NOT clean a baby's pacifier by putting it in your mouth... if you don't do this, the inoculation with tooth decay organisms can be delayed by years. If you routinely bite through fishing line, you'll not only wear a groove in your tooth but be exposed to different microorganisms than someone who does not.

    I would speculate that is bees forage on varied sources, have an underlying adequate nutritive base and are not exposed (deliberately or incidentally) to substances that degrade gut flora, they should be in good shape. But it will be different than a colony a county or a state away.
    Bees, brews and fun
    in Lyons, CO

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Brewcat View Post
    I suspect it's because much of the "feeding" that bees do is on their own and beyond our control,
    Ben, that is so very true, But how about when it come to feeds, we know very little what we actually need other than proteins,fats, pH level & were still learning that part.

    What about Antibiotic's that CP mentioned, or fumagilin that could wipeout any progress that we made, and the part that is frustrating we don't really know how to counter or off set one to the other.
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  6. #6
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    May 2008
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Well as far as I know microbial action is mostly important for digestion. Pollen grains are micro encapsulated and apparently highly resistant to degradation. We know ABs can eliminate digestive bacteria in humans. In ag environments limited pollen sources is the norm.

    We are fortunate to have guys like Keith and Randy asking questions and seeking answers.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Thanks for the kind words Tom, but I'm like everyone else in the crowd with more questions than answers.

    I've just got back from the lab some 20% protein & 8% fat level sub that i'm going to try in some hives. Is this a good mix? I haven't got a clue, I wish we knew more.

    It's like adding 3.5 quarts oil to a motor that needs 10.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  8. #8
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    Default Which Came First?

    The Answer or the Question?

  9. #9
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    Apr 2006
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    Delta, Utah
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    With our cows (my brothers and I own a dairy) we put microbes directly into the feed ration and it's really helped. Of course we have a nutritionist that formulates our ration for us. He tests all of our forages, looks at the health of the cows - too fat too skinny - what their crap looks like, how much milk they're giving and butterfat in the milk along with a few other things. He builds a ration that is most cost effective and healthy but still pushes the cows to produce as much milk as possible. Many nutritionists have a PHD in Bovine nutrition.

    I've been wondering with bees, Why couldn't one take some encapsulated pollen from a healthy, strong hive that's brought in a variety of pollens. Test it for protien levels, amino acid profile, fats, carbohydrates, microbes, vitamins and minerals and whatever else is in it. Then take what's available for bee feed - egg yolk powder, soy, brewers yeast, skim milk power, or any other protien supplement sold and formulate a ration as close as possible to what the bees make themselves. It must be harder than it sounds or more beekeepers would be doing it.
    -Rob Bliss
    Bliss Honey and bee supplies

  10. #10

    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Do we dare to try the commercial probiotics on the market to see effects? There is one for cows, pigs, chickens, humans, goats, sheep and every other livestock. We are playing with different mite controls, oils and acids why not probiotics?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Keith,

    Great question. Some studies are already being done on microbes and their benefits to bees, but not enough. (See link below on research titled "Microbes Help Bees Battle Chalkbrood") I personally think we should concentrate more on keeping bees healthy and better innovative and more natural ways of battling the problems in our hives then wasting tens of millions on "finding the cause of CCD". I won't even get off on a tangent about CCD and the "community" ignoring the obvious...that can wait for another time.

    As far as microbes I think there is some real progress that can be made if we understand how they work better to maintain healthy hives and things we can do to advance good microbe development in the hives and not work against nature and our bees by dumping things we THINK may be good for the hives but are actually working against the bees. I plan to do more research into the topic and will post any info I can find. The smarter we can get on these subjects the better I think we (beeks) will be at managing our hives.

    "Gilliam's research has shown that some of the microbes live amiably in bees' intestines and help with digestion. Others cause pollen grains --carefully packed into the comb cells by worker bees --to ferment and form beebread that nourishes the colony's brood and young bees. Some microbes act as food preservatives and keep the beebread from spoiling in the hive.

    And Gilliam's investigations have revealed that microbes such as certain Penicillium, Aspergillus, and Bacillus organisms apparently produce compounds that inhibit growth of chalkbrood-causing fungal spores."


    http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archiv...8/bees0898.htm
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  12. #12
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    Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    But, I do strongly believe that Nutrition plays a major... major role.

    It sure does!
    I read a paper provided by the Australian Ministry of Agriculture, bees, and it stated that they were adding stud horse conditioner to pollen and pollen substitute patties.
    I had a class in animal nutrition, FEEDS and FEEDING, and our required text was MORRISON'S FEEDS and FEEDING.
    It listed all of the known standards for balancing rations for the different weight classes of animals.
    When I have a plant analysed by the Fruit Growers lab in Santa Paula they ask me by what standards of comparison I wanted reported because the test results are run against known data. I was growing some California natives and they did not have any data. So, I thought about it and asked them to run it against a tomatoe plant at the same physiological development. Bingo, I found out that they were very low in nitrogen.
    I fertilized them with a balanced fertilizer and the plants thrived!
    Now, here is the kicker, all of the data that I could glean from the web kept saying to limit the fertilizer!
    I am tempted to submit to the lab a sample of bees from an apparently healthy hive just to develop the base numbers just like other plants and or animals! For example, the ppm of N in a healthy leaf is very close to 200 ppm.
    The cost of the lab analysis is going to be about $90-$125 .
    It took many,100's of trials to publish the data in MORRISON.S book and I do not have that kind of money.
    Bee researches need to focus more on the nutrional anaysis for bees
    We need to know about all of their nutional requirements.

    I am working on a new formula, feed additive. to add to known pollen substitutes that will include higher amounts of vitamins, minerals and trace elements.
    It would be much easier if we were more knowlegeable and had better resources like the other areas of animal husbandry!
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by BEES4U View Post
    Bee researches need to focus more on the nutrional anaysis for bees
    We need to know about all of their nutional requirements.
    Exactly!!

    I tell you, if we could get a decent group that agree on moving in this direction and come up with a good strategy I would be willing to contribute money to advance these types of studies. I am tired of research that does nothing to help us advance those aspects of beekeeping that directly affect the realities of commercial beekeeping. Research has to focus on the realities of commercial beekeeping (pollination, honey production, etc) and then come up with better practices that enhance those aspects and better management in non-cost prohibitive way.

    Hopefully this thread will continue and develop as people contribute to the ideas and give this area some real thought. Thanks Keith for getting things rolling.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    I would be willing to contribute money to advance these types of studies.
    Thank you!

    It's time for me to talk to the lab and see what they can do in a ppm analysis of bees.
    Ernie
    Last edited by BEES4U; 08-03-2009 at 11:33 AM. Reason: structure
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  15. #15
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    North Conway, NH
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    I agree with this but there is a flip side to this question.....there are thousands of different microbes in a bees gut. Different chems/oils/ and even sugar will kill certain microbes. I think this maybe a though nut to crack but well worth the effort.

    Maybee, we should have Mrs. Obameee send us some of the free money they are draining from us....

    John

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    How do we get a balance of microbial community within the hive.
    What is "microbial community"?
    How do you measure "microbial community"?
    What is the proper "balance of microbial community"?

    Is this the pH discussion all over again?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  17. #17
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Is this the pH discussion all over again?
    Well yes it is, I started that one & this one (sorry). It is also mentioned(pH) in this months ABJ artical on Microbes. If you get the abj Sqkcrk they have had a three part series on this.

    As most of you know I sell pollen sub to other keepers, I think nutrition is the most misunderstood part of the bee world today.

    Some here have talked about lab test of pollen, I have posted that here before. I sure like what I see from this thread.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Is this the pH discussion all over again?

    The ph and Richter scale are both logarithmetic and difficult to understand

    Richter scale - Reference Center
    Richter scale, measure of the magnitude of seismic waves from an earthquake, devised in 1935 by the American seismologist Charles F. Richter (19001985). The scale is logarithmic; that is, the amplitude of the waves increases by powers of 10 in relation... more

    The ph scale can be a useful tool in bee nutrition. We may have to add some natural buffers the make the "material' work for the bees.
    Regards,
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  19. #19
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    Hughson, CA
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Jester Bee Company has been putting probiotics in their supplement. Does anyone have any experience with their product?

    http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Microbes in Nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Beekman View Post
    Jester Bee Company has been putting probiotics in their supplement. Does anyone have any experience with their product?
    I have heard the bees did not eat the stuff, but that was only from one keeper.
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