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  1. #1
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    Default Native American Honey Bees

    Here is an interesting little article that is contrary to everything I have read that said honeybees were not native to North America. It seems that there were native honeybees here long before our current breed of bees were imported from europe.

    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...rican_honeybee

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Dee must be feeling pretty good right about now! One of the few who have consistently held to the view that North America had native honeybees before the import of European bees. Great article!
    Regards, Barry

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    I will alway believe that there were honey bees here also. There was just too much that needed to be pollinated to say otherwise. Granted there were not established beeks at that time period but robbing of honey from feral hives could have gone on. Mason bees and bumble bees don't have the mass numbers to cover all of the blooming things in North America.

    Just my thinking, and anyway what do I know about such things.

    G3

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Very cool!

    I still see about 100 native pollinators for every honeybee from my 3 hives on my property, and that's not even including the nighttime pollinators.

    Long live the honeybee, but all my bee and flower watching this year have actually left me in awe of all the other native and bumble bees!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    While I won't argue that we didn't have native honey bees, I will argue that this jumbled squashed mess of a bee can be indicative of anything more than a squashed bug with a wing. I'm all behind science and the sorts, but something that really irritates me is how the scientific community will just accept things to be true, when these very same findings wouldn't hold up in court or any other type of real scrutiny. The guy sees a wing an a stinger, so it MUST be a honey bee. Do some DNA testing, check for similarities, and find another fossil that is actually recognizable, THEN declare there really was a honey bee here.

    Again, I'm not arguing that we did or didn't have a native bee, I'm just bothered by the methods scientist use today.
    Last edited by Barry; 07-28-2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason: profanity

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Unless you're an expert on fossil insects I don't see your complaint Josh. Engel is the world authority. If he says its a bee its a bee. He has dedicated his life to fossil insects and evolution and has written books on the topics (Evolution of the Insects by Grimaldi and Engel 2005).

    DNA cannot be taken from this fossil. Neanderthal DNA can be collected and sequenced because there are physical bones and they are much younger specimens.

    If the results are published by the CA academy of sciences, they are thoroughly vetted. Journalists typically aren't science literate and neither is their audience so they often don't give a clear picture of the research they report on.

    Check out the article itself there is a lot more to it than the pic in the media report:

    http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17598545...ctica+2009.pdf

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Carmack View Post
    I'm all behind science and the sorts, but something that really irritates me is how the scientific community will just accept things to be true, when these very same findings wouldn't hold up in court or any other type of real scrutiny. I'm just bothered by the methods scientist use today.



    I am with you Josh... same thing with space clowns.... defining the universe and teh space time contiuim.... Who can argue your math is wrong...

    But who cares?? so its a bee? no DNA, and it doesn't matter to anything today... so we give them more research dollars to tell us its been dead for a million years!, yikes.... makes working for a living seem like such a dumb idea!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    A lot of good prehistoric fossilized honey bees are to whether apis millifera type bees are native to North America. If there is any doubt whether LIVE apis mellifera existed in North America before 1609 I guess we will have to just continue to argue the point.

    As to the idea that there were just too many plants here that needed pollination so honey bees must have existed here before Europeans brought them, I don't think that that sort of logic would hold up in a court of law. Besides, there are and were plenty of BEEs and other pollinators, just not Honey bees.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Josh, and gm. Did you read the 10 pages of systematic paleontology in the referenced paper, or just skim the news article?

    I suggest you read it and site your specific complaints with the methodologies described.

    I'm curious to know what, specifically, you find issue with.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Geographically speaking, where was this chunk of land where the fossil was found? Since, 14 million years ago it probably wasn't North America anyway.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Dee must be feeling pretty good right about now! One of the few who have consistently held to the view that North America had native honeybees before the import of European bees. Great article!
    Isn't it her pov that there are Native Honeybees (apis mellifera) not that there were?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Middle Miocene, preserved in paper shale in Stewart Valley, NV

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by iwombat View Post
    Josh, and gm. Did you read the 10 pages of systematic paleontology in the referenced paper, or just skim the news article?

    I suggest you read it and site your specific complaints with the methodologies described.

    I'm curious to know what, specifically, you find issue with.
    Well, no I didn't read the entire publication, but my point still stands in many corners. Rather it applies in totality to this particular situation doesn't negate my view in my opinion. I honestly believe the scientific community takes things for truth way to easily.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    So, in other words, a generalized statement, unsupported by any specific examples to be taken as fact.

    Isn't that what you're complaining about in the first place?


    All that being said, I think it was Richard Feynman who said "Beware the high priests of science." And to a certain extent, you have to do some digging on your own to figure out what's what.
    Last edited by Bizzybee; 07-28-2009 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Unnecessary quote

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Well, what I would suggest you do is find a little material on fact and opinion and research it, before you try and start an argument with someone who simply stated their OPINION all the while attempting to discredit them by pointing out that their statement is not based in fact when it was never based in fact. It was based in my opinion that the scientific community often takes too many "Discoveries" at face value rather than really investigating the origin.
    Now, i'm finished with this thred, I didn't even get on the net for this anyway, I'm trying to find me a new router..

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Honey Bee or not........what are the odds of making such a find????
    De Colores,
    Ken

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    I apologize if I have caused offense, and I certainly see where what I said could have caused it. It was not intended. What I saw was a generalized statement attempting to take issue with a decent piece of research w/o specific argument, and merely wanted to challenge that assertion.

    To a large extent the article is stated opinion as well. It's peer-reviewed, well cited, and well researched. But, essentially opinion at its core.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    14 million years ago I'm one of those carbon dating skeptics.
    Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless.
    Thomas A. Edison

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Geographically speaking, where was this chunk of land where the fossil was found? Since, 14 million years ago it probably wasn't North America anyway.
    14 million years ago isn't that long ago in terms of supercontinent cycles. The continents were in pretty much the same place. The Atlantic Ocean was slightly smaller and the Pacific Ocean was a little bigger.

    Here is a map of the continents 30 million years ago:

    http://www.ig.utexas.edu/research/pr...fc533d9825b3d0

    Here is the present day using the same map projection:

    http://www.ig.utexas.edu/research/pr...fc533d9825b3d0
    Last edited by Ardilla; 07-29-2009 at 07:38 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Native American Honey Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by NewbeeNnc View Post
    14 million years ago I'm one of those carbon dating skeptics.
    That's o.k. Carbon dating only works going back 50,000 years or so. You have to use other nuclides like Argon-40 for this time scale.

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