Where do you put the patties?

[Terry Small, Jr]

Do you get best results putting the patties under the lid, between the upper & lower, or on the pallet/bottom board?

Our inspections last week on our bees in the Imperial Valley turned out very disappointing results. Shotgun patterns, little or no eggs.

We're thinking that the bees are not gathering much pollen from the alfalfa, and have started cannibalizing the brood for protein. The queens are stopping laying.

We started feeding pollen sub last week, under the lids, and the bees were all over the patties before the lids were on. They look hungry.

We either have A LOT of bad queens or a major dearth of pollen. Any suggestions?

[BEES4U]

Do you get best results putting the patties under the lid, between the upper & lower, or on the pallet/bottom board?
I have been feeding the patties between the lower brood chamber and the 2nd brood chamber/ super.
I fed on 7/7/09 and fed again today7/11/09
Some of the hives consumed the 1st patties in lees than 3 days!
I stacked the patties today so that some of them could have two of them to consume.
Keith Jarret posted some nice photos here that show his operation. I was impressed by his feeding on the bottom board of the pallet.
The patty need to be near the brood.
I saw your photos where you were adding pollen to the mix and I think it's a good idea because my bees are having a dearth of pollen and nectar!
Most of the dark races of queens will shut down their egg laying when their is a dearth. That's why I am not very fond of the Russians. My Minnesota Hygienic breeder queens are laying and so are their doughters.
Your feeding should indicate what's going on in about 3-4 days.

Good luck,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries
Queen breeder

[Keith Jarrett]

.
I fed on 7/7/09 and fed again today7/11/09
Some of the hives consumed the 1st pattins in lees than 3 days!

Ernie, put on about six pounds, an take a couple weeks off.

[Terry Small, Jr]

Funny...

[Keith Jarrett]

Right now, we aren't sure what the prob is,

Or, are you just kiddn' around with Ernie. Seems kinda funny

First Terry, I would try to pin-point the cause of your problem.

Second, I was not joking with Big Ernie. A three pound patty?????

What are you guys trying to do "starve them into prosperity".

[BEES4U]

an take a couple weeks off.
He is not kidding around!
They are getting at least 6 pounds soon!
Ernie

[Matt Beekman]

Feeding patties in the alfalfa seed is a must. I suspect that alfalfa pollen is nutritionally deficient. Even if it was adequate, you will never get enough of it during alfalfa seed pollination at 2.5-3 hives per acre.

This is also the absolute worst time of the year to have protein deficient bees. In not too long, your hives are going to start generating winter bees. Once all the stored protein in bees' bodies is used up, it can take weeks to recover.

In reality it is time to start thinking about almonds. All you need to remember is all your hives ask for is a pound a week. Sounds like the old blue diamond ad.

[Terry Small, Jr]

As a new comm beek, I'm working from what I have learned from my foreman, Jose. I don't speak Spanish, so I'm at a disadvantage.

A 3 pound patty is about standard for us. 6 pounds is way outside our normal size. Maybe we should consider a larger patty. A larger patty, less often will result in more bee squish, but less often. Hmmmmm.......

There are so many ways to do this...

[BEES4U]

Here is some review for us all: Vitellogenin
Fat Bees - Part 1
http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/...ask=view&id=34



What if I told you that there was one amazing molecule in the honeybees’ bodies that allows them to store protein reserves, make royal jelly, promotes the longevity of queen and “winter” bees, is a part of their immune system, allows them to brood up in spring in the absence of pollen, and has an effect upon their foraging behavior? Surely you’d want to be familiar with such an important molecule!

Its name? Vitellogenin

This spring I was in the beeyard showing a class of kids a beautiful comb of very young brood. Every cell was glistening with “brood food.” I explained to the students the significance of that wonderous liquid, in that it was akin to the milk with which mammals nourish their young. Nearly all other animals on earth (with the exception of the nonsocial insects) either abandon their young to fare for themselves, or (in the case of birds) feed them the same food that the adults eat. Honeybees have the wondrous ability to feed their larvae with milklike secretions from their own bodies—royal jelly and “bee milk.”
Ernie

[BEES4U]

Here is some more leisure reading:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p534u0164n37877v/

Abstract. The honey bee originated in tropical Africa and later dispersed to northern Europe. It has been suggested that a higher hemolymph storage capacity for the glycolipoprotein vitellogenin evolved in temperate regions, and that the trait constitutes an adaptation to a strongly seasonal environment. We have investigated whether the relative vitellogenin levels of European and African honey bees are in accordance with this hypothesis. Our data indicate that European workers have a higher set-point concentration for vitellogenin compared to their African origin. Considered together with available life history information and physiological data, the results lend support to the view that “winter bees”, a longlived honey bee worker caste that survives winter in temperate regions, evolved through an increase in the worker bees’ capacity for vitellogenin accumulation.
Keywords. Honey bee workers - climatic regions - evolution - longevity - vitellogenin

Received 20 September 2004; revised 25 March 2005; accepted 13 April 2005.
Regards,
Ernie

[jean-marc]

For best results I think between the boxes is better, but with a sore back I put them under the lid. It's easier on my body and this way the bees get them. Patties don't do much good in the storage shed. At this time of year bees are strong so accessibility is not a problem for colonies. I'm finding here that strong hives are eating most of 3 pounds in 10 days.

Jean-Marc

[BEES4U]

I put them under the lid.
That works while the weather is with you.
I made some feed rims and they work real good.
My new ones are a lot lighter than the 1st ones.

Ernie

[Keith Jarrett]

A 3 pound patty is about standard for us. 6 pounds is way outside our normal size. ..

Terry, why be normal.

Heres a pic of two five lb rounds going in on a "set-out".

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=100_2833.jpg

And a standard 6-7 pound round, Terry, note in this pic that shows the previous patty.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=100_2837.jpg


Terry, you can put on 3lb patties..... I just hope Jose has lots of brothers.

[Terry Small, Jr]

Ok, I'm going to bring up tomorrow morning what is big for us, huge patties.

Jose did some tests last year, putting pollen sub on the pallet. He said that the results went very well, better than in the middle or on top. He thinks that with the extreme temps found in the valley, the bees tend to stay lower in the hive.

Putting patties on the bottom is certainly easier on the beeks than trying to split the boxes.

[Terry Small, Jr]

Something I just thought of:

If the only difference is a day or two in the time of consumption of say, a 4-6 Lb patty, does it really matter where you put it?

While one position may be better than another, how much better is it? Is it just a few percentage points, or is it a significant difference?

Putting patties on top is easy, tilting colonies to put them on the pallet isn't too hard, splitting boxes that are glued together with burr comb is a pain in the ***.

Is this a case where I'm making it harder than it has to be?

[BEES4U]

Putting patties on top is easy
You can put them on the top here in our southern California location 24/7 as long as the bees can get to the chow!
You might consider making some feed rims or buying the rims that are sold for the Formic acid pads.
I made mine out of furring strips and a piece of 1/4" plywood.
They work great in the almonds too.
Ernie

[JohnK and Sheri]

We have found putting the patties on top works great here in Wisconsin when the supers are first taken off until they start putting on weight from late flows or what we feed back to them. We also installed rims to accommodate patties early fall. Once the brood is pushed down they seldom work them well. When we put patties to them in California we split the box, as burred up as it is. Yes, it is a pain, but after initially splitting the boxes on the first go round, it is easier to reapply as desired.
Sheri

[BEES4U]

Easier on the back.
Well, it's been one year ago that we were giving this advice to the members!
And, we have a possible El nino forming!
Ernie