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  1. #1
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    Default Will long smoking force swarming?

    Could I build an enclosed trap, attach it to the tree, slowly smoke the bees over a period of hours creating a swarm including the queen? Would I know I had the queen if the bees in the trap formed a tight group after a long non-leathal smoking? It seems I saw a study on smoke and swarming was done in France. Would an entire colony leave? Thanks for any advice.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    I have no experience with bee removal from trees, but if you are successful in using smoke the right word would be absconding not swarming.

    Good luck Gilman

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Absconding, yes. Would they all pack up and leave as if there were a forest fire? They would be doomed without the queen so it seems she would eventually form-up the group until the scouts found a better home.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    It's doubtful you can run them out of tree with smoke and get them to decide to abscond. I've tried. Not to say it COULDN'T work but it's unlikely. Do a search on "trap out" and see what comes up. It's been discussed many times.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm#conemethod
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Perhaps I should be patient and wait until the colony swarms naturaly. I'm just getting into beekeeping. I'm reading all I can and find it all very fascinating. This new found iterest has all happened within the last two months.
    Two days ago I was walking around our yard and saw a lot of bees working the clover. It seemed like more bees than I remembered, but I kind of thought I saw more honey bees because I am now hyper-focused on them. My kids were kind of happy in the sandbox, so I walked back to our stand of catalpa trees thinking it would be wild to find a swarm hanging in a tree. No swarm, but a hive in one tree about four feet off the ground. I'm sure it was not there last year - I think I would have noticed.
    Now I'm thinking to myself how amazing it is to have a feral colony on our land - devine intervention - dumb luck (probably the later :-).
    I guess the biggest thing is to save the genetics of the colony for diversity's sake. If I could start with my own bees it would make the amazing more amazing. I'm very interested in the queen rearing process. I guess I'll get setup to lure a natural swarm that may happen. Silver spoon?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Kyle Leonard: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Could I build an enclosed trap, attach it to the tree, slowly smoke the bees over a period of hours creating a swarm


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    It's doubtful you can run them out of tree with smoke and get them to decide to abscond. I've tried. Not to say it COULDN'T work but it's unlikely. .
    Are we asking about making a hive swarm, or getting a swarm out of a tree?

    I don't know why anyone would want to take hours to smoke them out of the tree, if you can reach them. Just shake them into a nuc or hive and be done with it. Then put it on the ground and the rest will follow. Close it up that evening and take them to where you want them.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Oh, I mean to say that they have an established home in the tree. I was wondering if I could force them to abscond. I thought I might trick them into thinking that the woods were on fire and they need to pack it in, but I would have a large screened tube attached to the opening to collect the abscondies. Sounds cool in theory.

  8. #8
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    Dec 2008
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    Lauderdale County TN USA
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    No need to smoke them out, it's stressful and unreliable, but it can and does work. Do a search on trap outs, or i can tell you pretty much what you need to know, I also have a short video clip of a trap out i had finished a few weeks ago.
    search trapout on Youtube or search the forum history here I have a link to it.

    No need to worry about the queen as if you do it properly, they will create their own queen from reliable stock you provide them. In the end, you'll wind up with all the honey they already had stored up in the tree. My Mexican brother-in-law swore by the smoke out method, that's how he did it all his life in Mexico, then he saw me doing a trapout, and he went to the trouble of videoing it and mailing back a video to his family back home so they could do that instead. I have one trapout in progress, and will begin another in another week.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Oh okay, I understanding now. They live INSIDE the tree.

    Take a screen and make it into a funnel making the big end large enough to cover the hole and the other end just big enough for the bees to get through.

    Tack it up over the hole and depending on how high; get a hive front as close as you can. If you can't, just wait until there are a lot of bees outside and scoop them onto a frame and place it in the hive and close it up.

    As more bees gather outside the cone, repeat the scooping onto the frame and place it into the hive.

    This has worked for me in the past anyways.

    Ed

    PS if you want I can email you a photo.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Carmack View Post
    No need to worry about the queen as if you do it properly, they will create their own queen from reliable stock you provide them. .
    The queen sometimes will come out or be brought out.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    Fair Grove,MO,USA
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    I have at times got mad at a mean hive and used to much smoke and it just made matters worse (they got meaner) they will protect their brood. Like michael said, the trap out method would be a better way to go. Jack

  12. #12
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    Jun 2009
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    Caledonia, NY
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Thanks to all for the great advice. I'll check out the video and pictures. It is very interesting to find that they will go back and get all the honey out of the tree. They won't see the tree as their home because enough numbers can't get back in? There must be a point when the hive in the tree can no longer support the bees left behind? Fascinating. Thanks again.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    I have at times got mad at a mean hive and used to much smoke and it just made matters worse (they got meaner) they will protect their brood. Like michael said, the trap out method would be a better way to go. Jack
    For that reason I hardly use a smoker. I don't like one woman upset, let alone, 80,000 ladies. that's just to much for one guy to handle.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    long smoking caused me to fall over once, course it had nothing to do with bees........sorry could not resist. Ill go get stung now...

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    I am so glad I came here today I needed this laugh. Thanks!
    Last edited by Eaglerock; 06-14-2009 at 10:08 PM.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  16. #16
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    Orange, Tx, USA
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    I know where a couple of bee trees are, but they are going through a knot hole about 1 1/2" in diameter. No way to get to the bees without cutting the tree down, Trap out might work .

  17. #17
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    Lauderdale County TN USA
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    No, a trap out will work, the small knot holes work really well for attaching a cone. You must offset the cone by about 8 inches though or a few sharp ones will make it inside.
    Last edited by Bizzybee; 06-14-2009 at 03:03 PM. Reason: http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226194

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Josh, when you say offset by eight inches would you make the cone so it doesn't sit square against the tree, but at an angle that places the new opening eight inches out of alignment? Would you angle it up, I noticed this was advised by another poster. Thanks.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    I typically use aluminum window screening to make my cones with, you can staple them to the tree using a simple construction stapler. Once the cone is attached, just grab it and pull it one way or another. Upwards is better as bees will try to crawl up when they get confused. That makes it easier for them to figure out how to get out. When they cluster up after finding they cannot get back in, they will try to cluster in the area of the old entrance. If the cone is bent upwards, this will prevent them from accidentally finding their way back in.

    I have found that when I make a large hole to accommodate large colonies, I will have to periodically move the end of the cone by bending it one way or another, as a few of the sharper bees will have figured out how to fly directly in and out after a day or so. Really it won't hurt anything if they do fly in and out, as the queen will continue to lay hard as long as she sees numbers dwindling, but still sees pollen and nectar coming in. In the end it'll cause you to extract a larger amount of bees.

    I found this out by accident. On one tree, I made a 2 inch hole, sooner or later several bees found a way to get in and out. On that particular trap out I extracted 4 deep boxes worth of bees on a tree that appeared to house a small to medium sized colony.

  20. #20
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    Orange, Tx, USA
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    Default Re: Will long smoking force swarming?

    Does the queen ever come out of the tree?

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